Starting warbands - Post them here! (Read first post, plz)

Quote :

I avoided taking an Arabian Merchant in my starting warband despite his supposed official status.

What is the opinion in starting with a large henchman?
I'm thinking in a Beastman herd:

Heroes:

Beastman chief   65
Beastman Shaman  45
Bestigor           45
Bestigor           45
Centigor           80

Henchman:
Minotaur                 200

Everybody gets a free dagger and a hammer (18)

If you wanna start with the Mino and all 5 Heroes, this is the way to go.

I started Beastman like this once, and it works ok, IF the Mino survives.

Others might want to take the Centigot out, and get a few extra hencemen, dogs will give a better starting number, maybe a few extra weapons.

-Skavenslayer

Starting with a big guy is always risky, but they're also at the peak of their power right at the start of the campaign. The minotaur has some very good stats, especially if you clarify/house rule so that it can climb despite the animal rule. I will be starting a beastman band soon and I'll also go for the minotaur, although I'll do what Skavenslayer mentioned and have 2 gors instead of the centigor.

Either way you have rout out limit at 2 out of action model.
Centigor means +1 dice to roll
But the durken fun factor wins it to me

You could trade the Centigor for 4 dogs, putting you at 9 models, but I would not recommend that.

If trading the Centigor, I would rather have the 2 gors, like MasterSpark said.

@MasterSpark Im still waiting for some pictures of the warband.

-Skavenslayer

I've tried the minotaur + 4 hounds setup since it boosts you up to 9 models with a 3 rout limit, but I found the hounds' lack of climbing to hurt when playing on a city board. Out in the open fields of Empire in Flames they should do just fine, but I still prefer gors for getting experience.

Skavenslayer wrote:

@MasterSpark Im still waiting for some pictures of the warband.

I think you've missed: https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t8695-gharbad-s-redskins

MasterSpark wrote:

I found the hounds' lack of climbing to hurt when playing on a city board.

Fortunately in our group no one has any large warrior. (but to of us trying to get one troll and chaos spawn).
But it is seem reasonable to allow them to go were they can fit. (also the chaos centaurs/centigors, they although not large but certainly has they limitations). An abandoned ballroom, inner courtyards, wide enough stairs etc.

The main issue is the whole 'animals can't climb' ruling not the fact that the Minotaur is a big guy. The Minotaur has the 'animal' rule (but not the SAME 'animal' rule as warhounds, for example, because GW rules authors are unimaginative and have a congenital aversion to using clear and concise language if confusing and vague language is available).

Quote :

What is the opinion in starting with a large henchman?

I really like the 5 heroes and Minotaur set up because of the fast lethal attack combo of the Minotaur and the Centigor. Most starting warbands are not going to like getting hit by them. Since the rest of the warband is only marginally slower, they will arrive in time to support the initial charge with counter charges quite easily.

Naturally if you start this way its a big roll of the dice, but I like that.

Other good thing about Minotaurs is that they can gain experience and has the ability to learn some skills. (not other henchman large creature can do that)

Skills?

Von Kurst wrote:

The main issue is the whole 'animals can't climb' ruling not the fact that the Minotaur is a big guy.  The Minotaur has the 'animal' rule (but not the SAME 'animal' rule as warhounds, for example, because GW rules authors are unimaginative and have a congenital aversion to using clear and concise language if confusing and vague language is available).

Animal: A Minotaur is far more bestial than its Beastmen brethren and, although it  may  gain Experience, it may never become a Hero.
If the Minotaur rolls 'That lad's got talent', the Minotaur must instead choose a skill from the Strength or Special tables instead.

Basically Minotaurs got 4 chance to get skills.

Where did you find those rules, like what rulebook, what page?

(Not that they aren't interesting, just that you are the second person to mention them. The first could only quote from memory, then couldn't find them...)

Wierd.

Empire in flames read like:
"Animal: A Minotaur is far more bestial than its Beastmen brethren and, although it  may  gain
Experience, it may never become a Hero."

And a stand alone Beastman Raiders warband list (which is updated with the Shaggy Hide skill):

Animal: A Minotaur is far more bestial than its Beastmen brethren and, although it  may  gain
Experience, it may never become a Hero. If the Minotaur rolls 'That lad's got talent', the
Minotaur must instead choose a skill from the Strength or Special tables instead.

Its was down loaded from the Complete PDF collection from G+ Google Drive

The list is someone's house rule list (not a bad house rule, but...I wish folks still learned to footnote and site sources accurately instead of just plagiarize).

Whatever the gray box is, it is inaccurate as well. The Ultimate Mordheim FAQ cites and reprinted the EiF errata accurately (See section 17, Ultimate Mordheim FAQ).

About the starting Beastman warband: I think it is fluff-ful to use the eye of the god rule (shaman gets a mark leader gets a chance to get the mark or spawndom). It could also be themed to other chaos warbands (maybe not for skaven, chaos dwarf or dark elf but the 'regular' worshippers)

Athanatosz wrote:

bout the starting Beastman warband: I think it is fluff-ful to use the eye of the god rule (shaman gets a mark leader gets a chance to get the mark or spawndom). It could also be themed to other chaos warbands (maybe not for skaven, chaos dwarf or dark elf but the 'regular' worshippers)

It is somewere in the BTB, I think its about 10-20 gold extra for the Leader and Shaman, then they get the rules.

This is how I plan to play Beastmen, next time I get to play them.

-Skavenslayer

Skavenslayer wrote:

It is somewere in the BTB, I think its about 10-20 gold extra for the Leader and Shaman, then they get the rules.

This is how I plan to play Beastmen, next time I get to play them.

-Skavenslayer

Yes in the back where they suggest some additional rules. Although I'm not convinced this needed to be cost any additional gold crowns In the leaders case.

Hey guys,

I'm looking at joining a campaign soon and I'm probably going to be using Orcs. Just wanted to grab some feedback since a lot of you seem really knowledgeable about the game (and I'm fairly inexperienced).

I have a couple of ideas for my starting band which may sound a bit strange but bear with me...

1st idea

'Green tide'

Boss, Bow Club - 93
Shaman, club - 43
13 orc boyz, club (each in individual henchman group) - 364

15 models, 500gp

The idea here was to maximise the chances of TLGT. It also provides a veritable horde of tough melee fighters (even with -1 on duel wielding, a dozen toughness 4 fighters should be able to handle most things people can throw at them early on).

I've skipped the Big Uns since a) they start on 15xp but are only slightly better than a boy, so they feel like bloat for warband rating and b) they cannot access speed skills, while a TLGT boy can (along with shooting) - I plan to give my boys shooting skills and climb sheer surfaces for a mobile sniper squad. The remaining (non-hero) boys would be given swords and bows (and possibly shields), and would act as a flexible front line force to protect the sniping heroes.

2nd idea

'shooty Orcs'

Boss, bow 90
Shaman, bow 50

3 orc boyz (individual groups), bows, clubs - 114
7 orc boyz (individual groups), bows 245

12 models, 499gp

This is similar to the above idea, except the boys are slightly fewer, and come with bows for added mid-range flexibility.

Alternatively I could go for crossbows instead of bows, and have fewer boyz.

3rd idea

This is a bit more of a fluffy/'soft' list which aims more for fun rather than strategic focus.

Boss, crossbow 105
shaman - 40
Big Un, bow - 50
Big Un, bow - 50

3 orc boyz (individual groups), bows, clubs - 114
4 goblins, short bows 80
4 squiggs 60

15 models, 499gp

I love the models for squiggs but I'm finding it hard to justify including them, since they only have 1 attack, have unreliable movement, and don't ever improve...Goblins also don't seem worth their cost, since the tougher orc boy is only slightly more expensive and much more flexible with equipment. But, it could be a fun list since it seems perhaps the most colourful.

The first two lists feel more strategically savvy, but perhaps they might be seen as a bit beardy/unfun? Also, it seems a headache to keep track of 10/13 individual henchmen groups...Is there a way under the to merge groups later on (after I have 6 heroes)?

What do you think?

Cheers,

Maybe add later a black orck bodyguard hired sword to minimaze the animosity drawback.

Athanatosz wrote:

Maybe add later a black orck bodyguard hired sword to minimaze the animosity drawback.

40gp/game upkeep is rather steep though - that's more than an ogre! And his profile seems quite weak for that price. I think I'd rather buy another boy with a bow and club after every game. More models means more attacks, even after animosity

Those are original takes on the orc list, and it should be fun to try how they work. But I doubt the TLGT plan would work better than 4 heroes right from the start and individual groups of remaining henchmen as usual, it will take you many games to get a henchmen promoted and then both, speed and shooting. Keep in mind you will be rolling maximum 3 dices during exploration while you don't get TLGT... having to split the wyrdstone among 15 guys. Those guyz will starve, specially if they loose a game.

If you go for an orc shooty band, I would avoid many henchmen archers, they don't shoot 1 of every 6 turns on average, and tend to fail animosity in the worst situations. 3rd option seems much better, but I'd rather use just 3goblins, no squiggs, and get crossbows instead of bows for the big uns (and one more orc+club warrior for the inevitable close combat, and for the higher chances of getting the needed extra hero). You will have low starting numbers for an orc band, not so much marksmen, but those 3 crossbows will be much more scary than any henchmen bows after a few games.

Most orc players will tell you to avoid hired swords with starting bands, since with just 4 heroes and no post game bonuses you may have trouble to both, pay the unkeep and patch the casualties. But if you want to try it, having shooty heroes is probably the best moment, because the better chances of rolling at least 3 dices during exploration since they will be safer. I would go for pit fighter, medium unkeep seems fair enough, and having your heroes with long range tasks, he will give you the extra punch you will need in CC to face the biggest threats.

BTW, do you allow 13 henchmen as individual groups? I've allways played having 7 maximum henchmen slots, including hired swords. So 13 henchmen would mean 6 groups of 2 orc warriors and 1 individual.

bitxo wrote:

Those are original takes on the orc list, and it should be fun to try how they work. But I doubt the TLGT plan would work better than 4 heroes right from the start and individual groups of remaining henchmen as usual, it will take you many games to get a henchmen promoted and then both, speed and shooting. Keep in mind you will be rolling maximum 3 dices during exploration while you don't get TLGT... having to split the wyrdstone among 15 guys. Those guyz will starve, specially if they loose a game.

If you go for an orc shooty band, I would avoid many henchmen archers, they don't shoot 1 of every 6 turns promedium, and tend to fail animosity in the worst situations. 3rd option seems much better, but I'd rather use just 3goblins, no squiggs, and get crossbows instead of bows for the big uns (and one more orc+club warrior for the inevitable close combat, and for the higher chances of getting the needed extra hero). You will have low starting numbers for an orc band, not so much marksmen, but those 3 crossbows will be much more scary than any henchmen bows after a few games.

Most orc players will tell you to avoid hired swords with starting bands, since with just 4 heroes and no post game bonuses you may have trouble to both, pay the unkeep and patch the casualties. But if you want to try it, having shooty heroes is probably the best moment, because the better chances of rolling at least 3 dices during exploration since they will be safer. I would go for pit fighter, medium unkeep seems fair enough, and having your heroes with long range tasks, he will give you the extra punch you will need in CC to face the biggest threats.

BTW, do you allow 13 henchmen as individual groups? I've allways played having 7 maximum henchmen slots, including hired swords. So 13 henchmen would mean 6 groups of 2 orc warriors and 1 individual.

Thanks for the feedback. It's interesting to hear some potential flaws in my approach, but I think I must respectfully disagree with your analysis

The odds on average of rolling a 10+ for TLGT are 1/6. With 13 boyz (or thereabouts), I should be getting 2 heroes after the first 2 games, and another 2 after the next 3 games. At that point I'll have 4 shooty heroes who are both better value/lower rating and more powerful than an equivalent Big Un. I'm also not impressed with goblins at all (other than for a bit of fluff) - for a modest price increase, the boyz just bring a lot more to the table (including hero potential ofc).

In terms of money, with 15 members I should be getting at least 2 shards per game. If I save one every 2nd game I'll be selling 1 for 30, and then 3 for 55 (avg 42.5 income per game). That should be enough to replace a boy or two if needed, or otherwise to buy crossbows for the boss and any heroes (high priority purchase). I've given the boss a bow for the moment purely due to the low cost (and to use his BS/keep him safe early on) but that bow will probably be given to a boy in due course (once they get a BS upgrade) after boss gets his crossbow. I also think that bows are a decent value investment for boys - they are cheap, and don't harm their melee ability in any way. What they give is a lot more flexibility and board control. A dozen bow shots will always make an opponent think twice, and can help funnel enemy opponents into a more melee favourable engagement for me.

I think the pit fighter is also a great HS, but i'll defer upon hiring him until I get my hero upgrades and am earning a solid 3/4 shards per game. In the meantime I hope that my numbers/toughness will prevail in early melee struggles (I'm leaning more towards the first, melee/horde oriented list, at this stage. He will probably be the first HS buy, followed by a warlock.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it plays out - we can see who was right

Any further/more general tips on how to make orcs work (with this list in mind)? Priority purchases are going to be a) xbows for heroes b) swords for henchmen and then c) bows for henchmen (as well as more boyz). HS and troll are the final purchases, along with more exotic equipment.

Also, where are you getting that rule about a maximum of 7 henchmen groups? I can't find that in the rulebook anywhere.

It's allways great to have fresh ideas who deviate from the typical power player lists! and reading yours I'm also getting some to improve my starting bands.

7 maximum henchmen groups is how my group has allways played, maybe it's a rulehouse to prevent exploits like the one you are going for with TLGT, or to prevent rich bands to hire plenty of hired swords just for the last games. IDK, it's how we allways played and I thought it was like that for everyone

But even if you are making 13 different groups and none of them dies until advance (and that's very optimistic)... it's Mordheim. The most common results rolling 2 dices are 6,7 and 8... you may have luck and get 10 and 11 straight ahead... or not getting a single one in 20 rolls. Looks like a risky move and don't know if it gives you that much advantage. You can use pretty much the same strategy hiring the big'uns from the start and getting 5-6 heroes on average by game 2-4, instead of 4. You will have one less starting warrior (and no club for the boss), but will be rolling more exploration dice till game 4-6, and that's not only getting more shards, also better chances of nice multiple results.

It may be worthy to try it if your campaign is long enough, who knows. Since you seem pretty convinced to use it, don't forget to gives us feedback. Good luck with your boyz!

bitxo wrote:

It's allways great to have fresh ideas who deviate from the typical power player lists! and reading yours I'm also getting some to improve my starting bands.

7 maximum henchmen groups is how my group has allways played, maybe it's a rulehouse to prevent exploits like the one you are going for with TLGT, or to prevent rich bands to hire plenty of hired swords just for the last games. IDK, it's how we allways played and I thought it was like that for everyone

But even if you are making 13 different groups and none of them dies until advance (and that's very optimistic)... it's Mordheim. The most common results rolling 2 dices are 6,7 and 8... you may have luck and get 10 and 11 straight ahead... or not getting a single one in 20 rolls. Looks like a risky move and don't know if it gives you that much advantage. You can use pretty much the same strategy hiring the big'uns from the start and getting 5-6 heroes on average by game 2-4, instead of 4. You will have one less starting warrior (and no club for the boss), but will be rolling more exploration dice till game 4-6, and that's not only getting more shards, also better chances of nice multiple results.

It may be worthy to try it if your campaign is long enough, who knows. Since you seem pretty convinced to use it, don't forget to gives us feedback. Good luck with your boyz!

Yeah if I was using that house rule I'd have to start with 4 heroes. It seems like an unfair restriction in a way though, since you are restricting warbands who have an advantage in hired swords (mercs, dwarves) the ability to hire them (which indirectly benefits skaven/undead, the former needing no further buffs!). I guess my decision depends on the campaign length - if I was only playing half a dozen games, I'd probably start with the big uns, since odds are I'd only get my heroes upgraded and barely skilled before the campaign ended. But I think it will be a bit longer than that.

In terms of income, having 4 heroes vs 2 actually only averages out as one additional shard per game, so around 12 gp extra for 15 members. It's a fairly modest difference. As for the benefits, TLGT boyz are a) quicker to skill up than big uns, b) cheaper initially (which more or less balances out the lost income) c) 15 lower xp to start off with, so 30 lower warband rating and d) have access to speed, so they can gain scale sheer surfaces along and dodge, making them better snipers. They are significant advantages I think, albeit not HUGE ones. But then, I don't really see the risk as that huge, since it's only a dozen gps for a few games, and I start with a 30gp saving anyway. A modest risk for a decent reward - surely that's what playing Mordheim well is all about?

I take your point about anything being possible with the dice though - rolling less is obviously better (although the chances of rolling no 10+ in 20 rolls is slim indeed!). But hey, at the worst I'll get another chance at TLGT when the boyz hit 9xp . And also, if I'm really rolling badly after a few games, I might even buy some fresh 0xp boyz.

re: income again, I think hordes are not necessarily bad value, since you have to factor in the income you save by generating all of that xp for the henchmen. A smaller warband will have to pay a fair bit to add henchmen to more experienced groups as it slowly grows while a starting horde will generate all that for free. That alone outweighs or equals most savings. Also, a horde likely has a better chance of winning early games, and so gets an extra exploration dice (and leader xp), along with the scenario bonuses.