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DicLombardi
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PostSubject: BTB Temple Dog question.    Sat 15 Feb 2014 - 23:52

In our current campaign, our maneaters have aquired a temple dog from the sisters of sigmar, if they learn ride could one use it as his mount?

In the price list it says dragon monks, sisters of sigmar and priests only which seems to mean that only they can ride them. But if only those three model types (warbands?) can ride them why does it say not available to skaven, undead or chaos dwarves? Wouldn't it just be not available to all other warbands?

Also can a temple dog be used as an attack animal without its rider?


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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Sun 16 Feb 2014 - 7:17

Why is the title of your topic BTB Rhinox question?  Wink  The answer to that question appears to be yes.

The actual entry is confusing because of the inclusion of skaven, undead and chaos dwarfs at all, but the entry in my copy reads:
BTB wrote:
Temple Dog 250 + D6 x 10 gc Rare 13
(Dragon Monks, Sisters of Sigmar and Priests only.
Not available to Skaven, Undead and Chaos Dwarfs
)

This is unnecessarily confusing but does say 'not'.
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Sun 16 Feb 2014 - 15:08

Oh no haha, must have been thinking about Ogres and mounts and wrote Rhinox instead of Temple Dog, I also accidentally wrote Available instead of Not Available in regards to the Skaven and Chaos Dwarves. I totally stuffed my own question. Apologies!

Is the only available to Dragon Monks, Sisters and priests a supposed to suggest they are actually going to a temple and getting the Foo Dog, and any hero can learn to ride one except; Skaven Undead and Chaos Dwarves?
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 20:35

I'd cut out the middle men and just PM cianty with your question.  This is the second time the question has been asked on this forum in a couple of months, but so far no answer. (Of course the first poster asked it as a follow up question in a thread about something else and you have asked in a thread which looks to be about Rhinoxen...)

Also you can edit your thread title by editing the first post of the topic.
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Mon 17 Feb 2014 - 21:23

Good Idea man, thanks for the tip
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 0:35

Also, if you do get an answer via PM then please post it here. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 4:48

Temple Dogs and Rhinoxen are both monstrous mounts. Maneaters can ride either.

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Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 5:15

How many human sized models may ride on temple dog?or rinox?
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 7:38

If you had bought one then you would know! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 15:36

Hi guys Cianry replied to my message
cianty wrote:
Hi matt,

for the availability of the Temple Dog refer to the Price Chart. I wouldn't allow other warbands to "use" the dog under any circumstance. I don't think it is technically possible because other warbands cannot obtain the temple dog item. This is similar to humans who wouldn't ever ride a chaos or undead steed.
Lastly, if you look at the models - the original Citadel models for Temple Dogs and the current Ogres - the question can also be obviously answered with "no". The old Temple Dogs are even smaller than current horses so there is NO way an Ogre would make sense sitting on one of them.

Treat temple dogs like all other mounts (such as horses). After all, they are not single models (like warhounds or the Gnoblar item) but mounts and mounts are simply equipment from a rules perspective.

I hope this helps!

Best
Chris

In my original message I didn't include the part of the Sisters of Sigmar selling the Ogres the Foo Dog, I'll add that in there but his answers pretty difinitive
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 19:29

Warhounds can also be equipment from a rules perspective...  Just saying.

cainty wrote:
for the availability of the Temple Dog refer to the Price Chart.
Um, wasn't the confusion about the meaning of the price chart entry the reason you were asking the question?

werekin wrote:
Temple Dogs and Rhinoxen are both monstrous mounts. Maneaters can ride either
.
cianty says no to Ogres riding Temple Dogs.  You and he better get your stories straight.  Smile 

catachanfrog wrote:
How many human sized models may ride on temple dog?or rhinox?
Neither Blazing Saddles or BTB envision more than one model riding a mount.  You'll have to make up your own rules if you go that route.
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 19:59

Von Kurst wrote:
catachanfrog wrote:
How many human sized models may ride on temple dog?or rhinox?
Neither Blazing Saddles or BTB envision more than one model riding a mount.  You'll have to make up your own rules if you go that route.
Just use the rules for Magic Carpets from Khemri because they are very clear... Wink
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Tue 18 Feb 2014 - 20:13

RL wrote:
Just use the rules for Magic Carpets from Khemri because they are very clear...  Wink 

 lol! clown 
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 12:03

LOL

Availability: I don't think it makes any sense to combine a "Only..." and "Not available to..." restriction. Both of them are meant to be read something along: "Available to all warbands but with the following restriction: ". Apply both restrictions makes no sense.
In the case of the Temple Dog please ignore the "Not available to..." bit and only refer to the "Only...". This means Temple Dogs are only available to those explicitly stated warbands and can only be used by them too.

Why no Ogres? Well... Seriously. No. Have a look at the original Citadel model for Temple Dogs. They have the same size as horses (and not even big horses!). There is a reason why Ogres choose gigantic Rhinoxen as mounts and no petty horses.
By the way, the distinction between the Rhinox and Dog regarding their size is also made in the section description: "Due to their enormous size or special durability these mounts have more than one Wound." This was written this way to account for the the Rhinoxen's huge size and the Temple Dogs's stone skin (and not it's size which is nothing special when compared to other common mounts).

Reference gallery:
http://bordertownburning.ciantygames.com/showcase9.html

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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 16:08

Whilst I'm not keen to get into a protracted public debate with Cianty, which everyone else will be sure to revel in, I can identify some worthwhile points for this topic.

The view of scale has become jaded. Citadel ogre models released during the 1980's were of a similar size to your modern day orc. If you try to seat the latest released ogres on a vintage temple dog then I don't think it'll result in as delicious a pose as the Silver Tom winning Celestial Dragon Monk. A classic ogre could saddle up nicely however. If some Forge World sculptor knocked up some new Cathayan stone beasts on his lunch break then we could expect them to have bulked up a bit since the old days.

Descriptions of multi-wounded beasts being displayed on monster bases and described as monstrous mounts, give the only forseeable riding opportunities for ogres. You can't reasonably compare an ogre cocking his leg over an elven steed to going side-saddle on the back of magically animated stone construct. Unless you are you saying it would break like a cheaply manufactured toilet seat!

Maneaters are not just any old ogres. These wanderers are adventuring sell-swords who have travelled from one end of the world to the other and returned to share their experiences. They have sailed with pirate fleets from Sartosa, trained with ninja warriors from Nippon, studied the art of fighting with Cathayan longswords in the army of the Dragon Throne and more.

If someone paints up a model of a ghoul fighting with a close combat weapon then it should be fine to work on an ogre riding on a temple dog. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 17:10

Thanks for clearing that up guys, I think we're gonna go with the No Ogres on temple dogs. Not that it wouldn't be awesome to model. With the "not available to" being null and void according Cianty it's pretty clear who can ride them and brings it back in line with all other mounts. If we let ogres on temple dogs what's next, lizardmen on Nightmares?!!
Personally I didn't see a problem, both a Rhinox and a temple dog are equally (though in different ways) awesome and an ogre on either is terrifying, but some of my players were calling for the ogre in question to be strung up so I had to ask. Thanks again for all the help!
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Thu 20 Feb 2014 - 1:47

From a modelling perspective it's also cheaper and easier to model an ogre or a chaos marauder riding on mournfang mount than a rhinox miniature.

It's more practical to mount a model on anything rather than a temple dog! There is not exactly an abundance of them out there!
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Thu 20 Feb 2014 - 12:24

werekin wrote:
If someone paints up a model of a ghoul fighting with a close combat weapon then it should be fine to work on an ogre riding on a temple dog. Wink

Absolutely! Also, aren't those Half-Growns also considerably smaller and thus suited? I guess if you really wanted you could make a list based on warrior types rather than warbands and allow them access to certain items on a case by case basis. I know you're the role player type, Stu, who will allow everything when there's a worthy story to be told. Who would want to restrict themselves if that meant "less fun"?

However, that aside, *adressing the audience again* I have always felt that we should be providing rules in a more general attempt with the intention of having a solid basis for gameplay. Exceptions on a "case" basis should be made by the gaming group. Of course, it is absolutely in the spirit of Games Workshop to reward players who are willing to spend their good money on expensive models (Forge World, anyone?). But do we want to account for this and allow, like, Merchant wagons drawn by sweet Citadel Temple Dogs? I don't think so.

Lastly, and obviously not leastly, Stu - as the author of the Maneaters warband and knowledgable scribe all around - should definately have the last word on this. If he explicitly wants to allow Ogres on Temple Dogs then that is - somewhat - fine by me. But only if the player comes up with a proper conversion and posts it up on this forum!  Razz 


(Personally, I think Temple Dogs would then have to come in two flavours: horse-sized for humans and Rhinox-sized for Ogres and you then shouldn't be allowed to switch the dog around and pretend it is suited for all types of riders - large and "normal".)

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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Thu 20 Feb 2014 - 14:57

I agree, unless your warband's spellcaster uses a shrink/growth spell. Honey, I shrunk the temple dog!

It's preferable to see a Maneater cocking his leg over a magical dog statue, rather than it is to see one yoked up to a stagecoach. :-s

For posterity, let's also remember that the original 3x blister pack releases for temple dogs included the following rider options; hobgoblin, dark elf & (cathayan) samurai
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Thu 20 Feb 2014 - 19:43

cianty wrote:
(Personally, I think Temple Dogs would then have to come in two flavours: horse-sized for humans and Rhinox-sized for Ogres and you then shouldn't be allowed to switch the dog around and pretend it is suited for all types of riders - large and "normal".)
It probably is a mute point since RAW prevent ogres riding temple dogs but I personally disagree with the idea of two flavours of temple dogs if a house rule was used to allow ogres to use temple dogs.

Why? Well if the maneaters aquired Heavy Armour from the sisters of sigmar (using the scenario from the OP but changing the mount to an item) then I imagine that Heavy Armour would likely just be used by the maneaters. Likewise, I wouldn't have a problem if someone with an Osterlander warband buys Light Armour and gives it to his Elder for one battle and then the same item to his Ogre henchman for the next battle.

Obviously this is not realistic but IMO it goes too far to say that an item of Heavy Armour is "normal" size or "large" size and therefore this flexibility should apply to mounts too. The model of the temple dog mount when used by the sisters of sigmar would be small in size. The model of the 'same' temple dog mount when used by maneaters would be large in size. Meh! (In this instance, temple dogs are magical constructs to be used as mounts so perhaps the fluff to explain it away is that the temple dog resizes based on its owner similar to the One Ring from LotR. Maybe I'm clutching at straws but it removes an unnecessary complexity from the game.  Wink )
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Fri 21 Feb 2014 - 0:35

One size fits all... As with weapons, armour tends to be customisable. Ogres have a habit of taking a gromril breastplate and a shield to fashion a pair of shoulder pads!

Scale of monstrous mounts like temple dogs, rhinoxen and dragon turtles can be imagined by the hobbyist. Just look at the vast range in size of the different dragon models released over the years for Warhammer!
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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Fri 21 Feb 2014 - 3:41

@Stu: After posting I also remembered the different riders of the dog. Actually the dog I got from ebay came with a skink rider I believe. I can't find that configuration on http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com though.

@Rational: Yes, I agree, good point. Usually it is indeed "one size fits all" in Mordheim. For different good reasons, of course. I guess I just find it hard to imagine that there is a one size mount that fits both humans and "large" creatures like ogres.

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PostSubject: Re: BTB Temple Dog question.    Fri 21 Feb 2014 - 4:55

Cianty wrote:
I guess I just find it hard to imagine that there is a one size mount that fits both humans and "large" creatures like ogres.

Typically anything cast by Forge World does! I can fit an entire Norse warband in the howdah of my War Mammoth. Wink
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