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Asp
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PostSubject: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 4:55

Exploration is deeply unfair to Close Combat bands. In my last vanilla campaign I made a truckload of GC by having all shooty heroes who were consequently never taken out of action.

I'd like to make a better exploration system, one that does not favour ranged heroes.

I would be nice if the system did not depend on heroes at all, but on models left on the tabletop or something like that. That would also close the gap for people to always have to max out heroes.

And for some warbands to start earning 17% more income than others due to a lucky roll of Talent!

Any suggestions?
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DeafNala
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 5:22

Realizing that I'm probably going to catch some flack for this one, but what the heck: Unfairness is the nature of all games that have different characteristics for opposing sides from our little war games to real life sports & war itself. I see two choices: either accept the intrinsic unfairness & just play the game or take up chess/checkers.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 5:26

that a game cannot be 100% balanced does not mean that it cant be improved Smile
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DeafNala
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 6:26

Asp wrote:
that a game cannot be 100% balanced does not mean that it cant be improved Smile

I agree.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 10:14

the best thing i have come up with:

winner rolls 6D6
looser rolls 4D6

does not favor small or strong warbands
does not favor shooty or melee heroes

only con is, it is too generic for many peoples tastes
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 11:08

We had a similar discussion in another post in which I was slammed hard for saying that terrain was as much as strategy as the way you setup your Warband. I suggested if you like playing a “shooty” Band then use lower amounts of terrain. If you playing a “melee combat” Band use more terrain. I was slammed for this concept because, “Mordhiem is a dense city filled with buildings, ruins, and rubble.” So, as most gave me a hassle for it, I say, adjust your terrain; instead of “adjusting” the rules to your advantage.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 12:04

look, shadow i am not adjusting them to anyones advantage
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 12:24

we found the exploration somewhat meager ourselves, but what we changed was:
Roll the exploration dice prior to the game -> meaning, with all your heroes... take all the doubles/triples etc. and then ad markers to the battlefield to represent these things (we're currently making all the items, which is remarkably easy - save for the buildings, but we just nominate buildings as shop or archery etc.) you do not get money or special bonuses at this time!
Then start your game.
if you claim an item which can be carried/escorted (in the case of survivors) and live to take it along with you, it's yours. if you enter a building or such, you can claim items.

During the game, mark the models carrying items. if OoA, they can be claimed by other players. (therefore it's good to have markers to lay about.

If there is a winner, this player gets to search and claim the other items as well.

After the game, roll with the remaining heroes on the exploration table, and then you get your wyrdstone/treasure But not the double/triple awards!

this way, camping is discouraged, and it adds a bit of extra tactics to the game. -> rushing head on to meet the enemy and slay him is not always the most profitable way with this system, as items need to be claimed (that is after all what we're here for!)
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 13:30

Honestly that sounds like a pretty good fix, although I am inclined to say you should change it to something like

Winner 5D6
Loser 3D6
Add 1 to the number of dice rolled if the leader of the warband was not OoA.

Otherwise I think you'll end up with people making a lot of money very quickly. At least in our games, it is rare for a warband to make it out without a single hero being OoA, so it's very rare to roll 6D6.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 14:16

that's cool, myntokk, thanks

Winner 5D6
Loser 3D6

i think the last thing there:

Add 1 to the number of dice rolled if the leader of the warband was not OoA.

is a bit too arbitrary though. undead and possesesd need to engage and thus expose themselves whereas reiklanders and witch hunters can stay back

another criterium would be better
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 14:45

Asp wrote:
the best thing i have come up with:

winner rolls 6D6
looser rolls 4D6

does not favor small or strong warbands
does not favor shooty or melee heroes

only con is, it is too generic for many peoples tastes

Kind of destroys a big strategic part of Mordheim though...

Ezikiels fix sounded fun. How do you place the different objects?
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 15:17

Quote :
Kind of destroys a big strategic part of Mordheim though...

eh, how so?

maybe add the following:

maybe add the following:

in any battle wherein your leader took out three or more enemies, roll +1 d6 for exploration, regardless of wheter you won or lost

(still a little unfair as possessed/ undead will achieve this easier than other core bands. but much better)
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Tue 9 Mar 2010 - 21:07

I like the 3d6 - 5d6 +1 for leader in theory. On the one hand it would encourage players to send their most powerful units into the fight without as much fear of them getting killed.

This would also lower the penalty for warbands like orcs dwarves and possessed who start with fewer heroes.

It doesnt feel right tho somehow
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 0:34

@Asp: Well a big part of game is judging the risk of your heroes – your heroes are often the best fighters, so you have to choose to risk a dice roll at the end of the game if you charge in to combat.
In this matter, I think the game works quite fine. I don't experience that "shooty" warbands works better – mainly because shooting isn't that great in Mordheim (if your not an elf perhaps?) and it's quite the gamble to go heavy shooting – the heavy close combat warbands usually get there knack ones charging. I mean, it's a lot of tactics, if you hide a lot and keep yourself in cover you do quite well!
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 1:29

I was going to say, isn't this all balanced out because close combat heroes beat the snot out of people? Shooter heroes will never be as deadly as a cranked up CC hero.
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 2:39

I agree... I find that shooting heroes are much more of a gamble than cc. I mean, they never benifit from knocked down or stunned (which is good of course), they seldom get many dice rolls (tops 2 with quick shoot, if your not Johan the knife of course), and seldom reach above S4 with there weapons. I think shooting in Mordheim is actually very well balanced...
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 4:46

successful shooting hits against a stunned model ignores armour and takes them ooa
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 9:43

Asp wrote:
successful shooting hits against a stunned model ignores armour and takes them ooa

unless i missed an erata, in the official rules this only applies to close combat and not shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 9:47

While I would accept Asp's fix for exploration without any qualms (as it is about as fair as it gets), I don't know that I see the need for it. Shooty heroes may make more money, but in my experience it's the combat heroes that gain all the "enemy out of action" XP and thus advance quickly. I see it as a trade-off - warbands with less "in your face" heroes will have more money and better equipment while the fighty warbands will generally have more skilled and experienced warriors.

As for your fixed number of exploration dice, why not make it contingent upon how long the routing warband stayed in the game? Start with 10 dice in a pool and have each player take one for every full two turns they are in the game. If the game ends before turn 10, the winner gets the excess exploration dice...

If you're worried about people rolling more than 6 dice, you could always say that excess dice are lost (I don't think they should go to the loser if they routed before turn 4).

Keeps people from routing AND balances exploration.
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 10:44

I do not think shooting is overpowered in the game compared to close combat. A Shooty hero can put out, at best, 2 S4 attacks in a turn, both of which can take large penalties (cover, range, etc). There is also a fairly limited range of skills that will improve this (since Quickshot is already included). A Ranged henchmen can only ever put out a single S4 shot /w armor piercing, shoot every other turn, and not move, a single S4 shot and not move (crossbow) or a S3 and move at penalties (any bow).

On the other hand, a melee specialist (of almost any race) can put out 6 attacks at S4 w/ weapon specials (cutting blade, parry, concussion, etc) and a large list of boosting skills or 5 attacks at S6 with the same bonuses (particularly once Strongman is taken). A melee henchmen can potentially put out 3 attacks at S4 or 2 at S6 (striking last).

Heck, all you need to look at is the experience table, of the results only 3 of the results benefit ranged heroes while all of them help melee ones. For the henchmen only ONE result (other than LGT) helps a ranged henchmen while all of them help a melee one.

Then you can look at the special rules melee models get (being able to instant-kill stunned models and such) and if anything the system is overpowered *against* ranged models.

In my experience (playing ranged armies in Mordheim, Fantasy, and 40K) the biggest problem that I see where people start to complain about ranged attackers being overpowered is because you are not using terrain properly in your games. Mordheim in particular, the system is expecting you to use a fair amount of terrain. If you play on a open, Fantasy-like battlefield than yes, your going to be hammered by a shooty list but that isn't the fault of the shooting system, its because you aren't using terrain on the board or simply not utilizing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 13:22

I think your issue is more with how Range is less risky then melee.

I use to think that you were right, but then we got more Terrain, and I started using the hiding rules, and then I could get into melee with the shooty armies and take them out. Nothing like seeing a Horde of Orcs show the Dark Elves what two choppers to the face feels like.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 13:45

Quote :
As for your fixed number of exploration dice, why not make it contingent upon how long the routing warband stayed in the game? Start with 10 dice in a pool and have each player take one for every full two turns they are in the game. If the game ends before turn 10, the winner gets the excess exploration dice...

interesting... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 14:47

Asp wrote:
successful shooting hits against a stunned model ignores armour and takes them ooa
Well, this doesn't really turn the table, considering the comparisons that have been made between shooting and melee.
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 14:56

Asp wrote:
successful shooting hits against a stunned model ignores armour and takes them ooa

Is this a change you made for coreheim? Because it's not that way in the original rules.

I do like Cygnus Maximus's proposed idea - makes a lot of sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Exploration is Unfair   Wed 10 Mar 2010 - 15:07

I like it the way it is Razz
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