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Claus
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PostSubject: Diving Charge question   Sun 13 Sep 2009 - 3:18

Two questions related to diving charge.

1)
Is it possible to intercept a diving charge ?
For explaination. I have 3 different models in the 2" landing zone of the guy making the diving charge. The diving charger wants to attack the one farest away to itīs landing zone. Do the other 2 models have the option to intercept ? would say NO but who knows. Very Happy

2)
We had a situation in our game where a Ghoul Hero were jumping down a balcony to charge my beastmen shaman. The Ghoul Hero were standing direct at the balcony.
When jumping down (to come in contact with my shaman in most direct movement) he would not have had the shaman in diving charge range.

If the Ghould would have ran 2" on the balcony to the left and then jumping down he would have had the shaman in diving charge range.

Basically the question is the following one.
Do I also have to try to get in contact with the model I want to charge in most direct way when jumping down a house/balcony/whatever ?

3)
Do I have to jump down a building (or whatever) to get in contact the most direct movement with a model I want to charge or can I say I will go down the stairs as I have high enough movement range. So...is jumping down (during charge) voluntary or mandatory ?

Best regards
Claus
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JAFisher44
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Sun 13 Sep 2009 - 4:08

1) Let me say first that the RAW creates a situation that is counter-intuitive and that even though the following is my interpretation of RAW this is not how I would do things. A Diving Charge is not a Charge. It is listed in the jumping down section, not the Charge section. The rules simply state that if you land within 2 inches of a model you may "diving charge" it. You get +1 to hit and +1 to strength in the first round of combat. In fact, I am not sure you would even get the normal benefits of a charge.

2) According to the rules for diving charge you may "diving charge" any models that you land within 2 inches of. From the text it seems that you may do this any time you jump down. It doesn't seem to matter what movement preceded that jump.

3) If you want to perform a normal charge the rules state that you must take the most direct route. I would personally amend that to be the most direct route or the most direct safe route (if desired).

There is a little wiggle room in the RAW here. In the italicized text description under the diving charge graphic it describes the movement as a charge for the whole move. If the whole move is a charge then you would have to move in a direct line toward the model and jump down where that line went over the edge. If this path causes you to jump down out of the 2" range then you would not get the diving charge bonuses (but you will still get the normal charge bonuses if you have the range to get there.)

Basically it depends on what you want to accept as the rule. Do you follow the description in italics, or do you follow the description in the Diving Charge section.

The Mordheim rules are very poorly written. The game is fun and wonderful, but full of bad rules holes. I suggest that you simply sit down with your playing group and decide how everyone wants it to work. Write it down and use that.
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Mon 14 Sep 2009 - 11:39

Hello

First of all thx for your comments and interpretation.

I donīt agree with ....Itīs no charge as it is listed in the jumping down section......because thatīs simply not correct.

Diving Charge is part of the complete movement section that is covering all kind of movements (standard movement, hiding, charging, climbing, jumping....etc.)


Diving charge --> due to the word "charge" it should be clear that it is a charge Wink

Text from the RB:You may charge any enemy troops that are below a
balcony or overhang, etc, that your model is on.

[size=9][size=9]If an enemy model is within 2" of the place where your
warrior lands, he may make a
diving charge against it.
[/size]
[/size]



For me it is clear that it is a special kind of charge....but all the other things (questions 1, 2 and 3) are not that clear for me ..... or letīs say....this are the topics we had discussions about
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Mon 14 Sep 2009 - 12:07

Let me have a try:

Question 1: The rules do not state it clearly one way or another. I would allow an intercept if the path from the place your charger lands to the intended target (i.e. the 2" radius translated into a line) would normally allow an intercept - but this is interpretation based on the fact that it IS a charge so the normal rules apply.

Question 2: You have to move by the most direct route that is possible - this is not stated in the rules but can be argued since you can charge models behind corners which is most certainly not in a straight line but is explicitly permitted. I think that moving and then diving is possible if it is the only way to complete the charge. But this is once again my interpretation of the rules.

Question 3: The normal charge rules state that it is like a running move, so you are not forced to jump - this is the only question i can answer directly with a quote from the rules (page 10 2nd paragraph):
"A charge is like a running move, performed at double
the Movement rate, but ends with the attacker moving
by the most direct route into base-to-base contact
with the enemy model."
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Mon 14 Sep 2009 - 23:31

Claus wrote:
Text from the RB:You may charge any enemy troops that are below a
balcony or overhang, etc, that your model is on.

[size=9][size=9]If an enemy model is within 2" of the place where your
warrior lands, he may make a
diving charge against it.
[/size]
[/size]



For me it is clear that it is a special kind of charge....but all the other things (questions 1, 2 and 3) are not that clear for me ..... or letīs say....this are the topics we had discussions about

Generally in the mordheim book things that are referring to a specific rule are in italics. Like in the part you quoted above the word Diving Charge is italicized. The word charge is not. Also specific rules terms are usually capitalized. Again, Diving Charge is, charge in the first sentance is not. One of the problems with the Mordheim rule set is that it is very hard to tell when they are using a word descriptively, or as a specific rule reference.

As I said before, I prefer your interpretation. It is just not how the RAW reads (IMO).

That aside, since you wish to interpret it as a charge with the diving charge rules included I will answer your questions with that in mind.

1) Yes, any model within 2 inches of the charge line may intercept the charge. A Diving Charge is exactly like any other charge in all regards except where specifically stated otherwise in the Diving Charge rules.

2) The rules of charge state that you must move by the most direct route to the enemy model. Unless there are obstacles this means in a straight line. You may not swing wide on a route that is not "the most direct" just because it gives you a rule advantage.

3) Again, the rules state that you must take the most direct route. If the route involving jumping is more direct then you must take it. I suggest that all people allow the player to chose to take the most direct, safest route if they perfer, but this is not supported by the text of the rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Tue 15 Sep 2009 - 1:21

@JAFisher44

Thank you very much for your time, explaination and interpretation....

Itīs allways good to read other opinions on a certain topic as it helps sometimes
to get a clearer picture.

I could live with one or the other way of interpretation but to be honest I like most the explainations when considering the "diving charge" as a charge.

Finally it will be up to our gaming group to decide on how to handle it in future.

Regards
Claus
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Thu 17 Sep 2009 - 16:34

I thought I had replied to this but I guess not.

Diving Charge is a charge. There is NO way around this. You MUST declare a charge in order to get into Hand-to-Hand combat. This is a core rule that can not be modified.

Regardless of any logic to the other this is a charge and all normal rules must and will apply (Fear and Interception and etc).
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PostSubject: Re: Diving Charge question   Today at 2:53

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