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 Diving charge and pistols?

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SaittaMicus
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PostSubject: Diving charge and pistols?   Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 17:30

I was playing against a hafling warband(I think it was downloaded) with my Reiklanders, everything was fine untill we encountered something that lead to an argument!

I was trying to stay close to the walls so he would'nt be able to shoot me as much as he wanted, but this gave him the opportunity to make a diving charge.
So the hafling was equiped with a sword and a pistol, he misses with the sword (2+ to hit) so he shoots with the pistol and hits, but then he declares that the pistol has a strength of 5...

I questinoed this, since we usually play with the house rule that handguns have s5, but not pistols. So he claims that he gets the +1 to strength from the diving charge to the pistol as well...

I cant in any way see how that is possible, I can accept that he gets +1 to hit, but how does the pistol become stronger then he is falling!
He tried to say that the shot came from a weird angle, but in that case shooting from above would also grant +1s.

Reading the rules of diving charge, and pistol, it would seem it could work... but logically... NO!!!
After arguing for a very long time we rolled to see what he rolled to wound... he rolled a 5 so it would'nt have mattered (2+ or 3+)
So we left it at that, but it has been bugging me for so long, the rules might say he gets +1s, but I cant really see how its possible!

Can anyone confirm this, does the pistol get +1 strength for a diving charge?
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 18:10

LOL, only in Mordheim, City of the Damned.

No, he would not get the +1. Here is your logic back to your halfing friend.

If this were to be true then the pistol should be at the strength of the user. If he wants to do that then OK, if not then his logic is off.

I can fully state this was NOT the intention of the rule. There is nothing saying it doesn't but again this was not the intent.

ANSWER MOD DABANK from the SG Mordheim Forum.
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 0:47

indeed, what Da Bank said is true.

the +1 strength comes from the kinetic energy that one has when striking on a diving charge, therefor adding +1 strength to his base stats (for that small period of time). Normal melee weapons have the rule AS User, so profile +1. The pistol or any missile weapon does not have the rule AS user. so it doesn't apply Wink
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SaittaMicus
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 5:04

At least he gets the +1 bonus to the hit roll, so it would'nt be a complete waste!

Thank you guys for your help!
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Paluke
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 14:39

yeah that is sweet!

Wanna hear a little trick?

click the spoiler Razz


Spoiler:
 
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lord siwoc
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 15:08

Duelling pistol gives him +1 to bs, not ws
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catferret
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 15:47

lord siwoc wrote:
Duelling pistol gives him +1 to bs, not ws

Incorrect. They grant a +1 to hit in both close combat and shooting. Although it was not specified in early printings of the rulebook, it was clarified in one of the FAQs.
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Ancre
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 16:34

Paluke wrote:
yeah that is sweet!

Wanna hear a little trick?

click the spoiler Razz


Spoiler:
 

But isn't a one always an auto-fail ? Or is that another rule you actually take for granted and that doesn't actually exists ...
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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 17:05

Paluke wrote:
indeed, what Da Bank said is true.

the +1 strength comes from the kinetic energy that one has when striking on a diving charge, therefor adding +1 strength to his base stats (for that small period of time). Normal melee weapons have the rule AS User, so profile +1. The pistol or any missile weapon does not have the rule AS user. so it doesn't apply Wink

As the rule is worded, +1 st should apply to pistols as any other weapon in a diving charge. But we have now an "official" saying this is not intended. Also, the kinetic energy from the fall would still apply to the bullet as long as it is fired while falling. It's just that the KE from the fall would be very small compared to the KE from the gun powder. In conclusion, add the following to diving charges: "Pistols can not be fired accurately while performing a diving charge."
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 1:12

Ancre wrote:
But isn't a one always an auto-fail ? Or is that another rule you actually take for granted and that doesn't actually exists ...

No it is not. This came up recently on the Mordheim Yahoo group as well. Despite many people believing it is, this rules does not exist in Mordheim. You don't auto-fail on 1's - ever. You can auto-hit in ranged combat and you can have 0+ armour save that is always passed.

The 1=fail rule is from a later edition of Warhammer and was never brought over to Mordheim.

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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 4:20

If you fall/dive very fast, the downward force might add speed to the bullet and thus giving it +1 strength? haha Razz

Nah, just kidding - we don't play with it either, a pistol have s4, not strength of model+1 Smile
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lord siwoc
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 4:51

catferret wrote:
lord siwoc wrote:
Duelling pistol gives him +1 to bs, not ws

Incorrect. They grant a +1 to hit in both close combat and shooting. Although it was not specified in early printings of the rulebook, it was clarified in one of the FAQs.

I stand corrected, have the old book.
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Popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 10:13

"Weird angle" that's a absolute hilarious argument...

---

We usually play that you always fail on a one no one can be as good as not ever failing...
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Pathfinder Dubstyles
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 14:40

Exactly what weird angle? Well obviously it was, "back, and to the left." Very Happy
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Popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 16:17

Ah, the O' so dreaded perhaps i curled it?
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SaittaMicus
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 6:04

Funny thing is then he is still arguing that the pistol should get a +1S!

Trying to tell me that you should get something for making a diving charge(Seems he misses the +1 to hit part)
Now he is trying to argue that he might tackle his opponent to get the +1S... witch is dumb, thats more like the +1 to hit part!

Also he tried to argue something about characters that has a S5 would not benefit then making a diving charge with a pistol...

First of all... what characters have S5 and can use a pistol!?
Second, why would you use a pistol in closecombat if you have S5, pay 3 gold and give him a extra club!!

Dont know why he is so obsessed by this, he usually is a reasnoble player...
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 8:11

i disagree with da bank, according to the rules he gets +1 S, but this is a prime target for house ruling!
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 9:23

Asp...he doesn't get +1 to Strength for a pistol. No matter what you say or do. It doesn't work that way and that is the official response.

Pistols use WS for close combat but you use the pistols strength not the figther's characteristic. This was not the intent of this. Common sense needs to come into play.
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 9:37

Applying the +1 S for a diving charge to a pistol.. come on, that's friggin ridiculous! Anyone can read the diving charge rules and grasp the idea and intention behind it and easily see that it makes no sense at all to apply the bonus to pistols.

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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 10:19

I must reverse my prior statement on this. The rules clearly state the "model" receives the +1 st, not the attacks, not the weapons. Since ranged weapons' st are not based on the models st, there is no +1 st to the pistol. +1 to hit should still apply however.
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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 10:37

ts061282 wrote:
I must reverse my prior statement on this. The rules clearly state the "model" receives the +1 st, not the attacks, not the weapons. Since ranged weapons' st are not based on the models st, there is no +1 st to the pistol. +1 to hit should still apply however.

While I think the +1 Strength wouldn't make any sense anyways (irrespective of how the rules are worded), I do think that the +1 to hit makes total sense. A diving charge is not only about the impact of the charger (+1 S) but also about taking the enemy by surprise and giving him no chance to evade or dodge the attack. A +1 to hit makes surely sense in this context - for close combat weapons as much as for pistols.

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PostSubject: Re: Diving charge and pistols?   Thu 9 Jul 2009 - 11:42

Quote :
If he succeeds, the model gains a +1
Strength bonus and +1 to hit bonus but only during
the following hand-to-hand combat phase.

yaerh, profile increases do not affect the strength of pistols, my bad. confused
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