Border Town Burning-Vastly Changed Maneaters

In a month or two, a BtB campaign will start. I was looking things over, and the maneaters just seem broken. Compare a halfgrown to a mercenary.

Mercenary (14xp, 4 advances, maxed out. Base cost: 53)
M-4 WS-4 S-4 T-3 W-1 I-4 A-2 Ld-7 (stats could be different based on rolls, but these are good ones)

Halfgrowns (base cost 85)
M-6 WS-3 S-4 T-4 W-2 I-2 A-2 Ld-7 (no upgrades)

So for 32 gc, you get +2 M, -1 WS, +1 T, +1 W, +fear, foes get +1 to hit with shooting. Overall, it's a good deal, and those are the worst fighters they get! Maneaters get 12 ogres for petes sake, with all of the heroes getting an easy 5+ WS v. shooting.

And to make matters worse, if they choose the protectorate objective, they get to replace all lost henchmen for free (minus experience), when fighting scions. That is freakin' huge. Really, I'm just picturing a total of 26+ wounds worth of ogres barreling into an enemy warband at high speed. It's like a train approaching.

But, seeing as how I want to play ogres, I decided to give a shot at toning them down...please help with constructive critisism. My feelings won't get hurt.

(Note: much of this is stolen from the geniuses who made BtB)

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Special Rules

Ogres

* Large and Hungry: All ogres cause fear, are large targets, and count as 2 models for the purposes of warband size during exploration and rout tests. Ogres are immune to all alone tests.
(Ie: a warband of 15 models, with 3 ogres, counts as 18 when determining warband size during exploration. During a battle they are still 15 models, but each ogre counts as 2 when it comes to routing.

* All to easy: Ogres get 1/2 xp for taking enemy models OOA. This is unless the model has (without weapon modifiers), strength 5, toughness 5, and/or 3 wounds.

Gnoblars

* Insignificant: All gnoblars count as 1/2 a model for the purpose of rout tests.
(Ie: If an ogre and 2 gnoblars go OOA, that count as 3 models (the ogre counts as 2, the gnoblars count as 0.5 each)

* Bicker: All gnoblars who are not within 6'' of the leader will bicker on the roll of a 1. They may do nothing during the turn besides defend thesmelves and yell insults at their mates.

Max Warband Size
15 models

Experience

Maneater: 20xp
Mountain Guide: 20xp
Butcher: 20xp

((Note: This is to slow down level ups, and to increase the warband rating for having ogres so many ogres))

Skills

Maneater: Combat, Shooting, Strength, Speed, Special
Mountain Guide: Combat, Shooting, Strength, Speed
Butcher: Combat, Academic, Strength, Speed

New Skills

Thunderous Roar: The warband may re-roll it's first failed rout test.

Dog of War: The warband may now hire hired swords as per a mercenary warband. If the leader dies, the hired swords leave.

Ogre Equipment

Dagger: 2gc
Mace: 2gc
Axe: 5gc
Ogre Club: 10gc (mace with a -1 AS modifier)
Sword: 10gc
Iron Fist: 15gc (sword and buckler combined)
Great Weapon: 15gc
Morning Star: 15gc

Shield: 5gc
Light Armor: 20gc
Heavy Armor: 50gc
Helmet: 10gc
Gutplate: 25gc (Treat a critical hit as a normal wound on a 5+. Rare 9)

Harpoon (Mountain Guide Only): 50gc (str 5 crossbow, rare 10)
Ogre Pistols (Maneater Only): 35gc/70gc for brace (Handguns with pistol rules)

Gnoblar Equipment
Dagger-2gc
Mace-3gc
Axe-5gc
Sword-10gc
Spear-10gc

Sling-2gc
Short Bow-5gc

Shield-5gc


Heroes

1 Ogre Maneater 145gc
Maneaters travel the world seeking fame, glory and a full meal. It is not uncommon for them to lead small groups of ogres, that is, as long as the maneater can guarantee a steady supply of food.
M-6 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I3 A2 Ld8
Skills: Leader

0-1 Mountain Guide 145gc
Loners by nature, mountain guides will sometimes choose to travel with their own kind. While such situations rarely last long, all maneaters know that when employment is scarce, it is good to have an ogre nearby which knows how to catch his own food.
M-6 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I3 A2 Ld8
Skills: Hunter (A mountain guide can choose to go hunting instead of looking for rare items. If he does this, take an I test. For each point he passes by, one ogre in the warband counts as a single model instead of 2 during exploration)
IE: A mountain guide rolls a 1. He passed his I test by 2. Therefore, a 15 model warband with 3 ogres counts as 16 models instead of 18.)

0-1 Aspiring Butcher 145gc
To be a great chef, an ogre must travel the world. He must visit foreign places, experience their cultures, meet new people, and eat them. For such an ogre, it is worth it to travel with a maneater, both to eat his kills, and for protection.
M-6 WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W3 I3 A2 Ld8
Skills: Maw (a butcher may eat an unfortunate nearby gnoblar. If a gnoblar is within 3'', and fails an I test, a butcher may eat the gnoblar, causing any ogre within 6'' to regain 1 wound (this will cause a stunned or knocked down ogre to get up and fight as normal). Erase the gnoblar from the warband roster. This does count for the purpose of rout tests)


Henchmen

0+ Gnoblars 10gc
M4 WS2 BS3 S2 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld5
Equipment: Sharp Stuff (thrown weapon, 8'', str 2, 2x shots)
Skills: Claimed! (When a gnoblar gets 'lads got talent', he becomes claimed by an ogre. Erase the model from the warband and add him to the ogre's equipment. The ogre may now roll twice during the exploration phase. If the ogre went OOA, the gnoblar may still search on the roll of a 3+. However, if the ogre dies so too does the gnoblar!)


Lookout Gnoblar: The ogre loses it's "large target" special rule
Luck Gnoblar: The ogre may re-roll 1 die, before or after the game
Sword Gnoblar: The ogre gains +1 attack at the gnoblar's WS, S and I.

Ie: A maneater gets a sword gnoblar. If he survies the game, he rolls twice during exploration. If he went OOA, then on a 3+ the gnoblar may still search. But if the ogre dies, then the gnoblar either dies too or flees, and no dice are rolled for either.

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What do you think? 3 ogres backed up by a bickering crowd of nitwits. Only 3 heroes to start, and any ogre going OOA really hurts when it comes to money. But then again, 3 ogres are nothing to laugh at for most warbands...

I actually like the original warband, and knowing cianty and all the playtesting involved in BTB, I suppose the warband is not broken. Especially in campaigns, it is pretty important to also consider the various other rules of the warband, not just a few profiles: they gain experience half as fast, have access to very few hired swords, cost extra upkeep, have it difficult to find rare items, don't have that many missile weapons, etc.

3 ogres might be a little too few, considering that, for example,chaos marauders can get pretty damn powerful, too, and with a spawn, a lucky condemned, horses, warhounds... should be quite tough for the ogres to survive that.

Also, exploration-wise, it's few, and while they can get claimed gnoblars, you really need a lucky roll and have to hope none of the 145gc guys dies before that, or you might find it quite difficult to replace them.

I do admit they are really a tough warband and need some skill to manoevre around them, but then, all the BTB warbands are very special and are easier to play or to defeat with some tactics. And if you're afraid the Celestial Protectorate objective giving them too much power, chose another one

Having played against a BTB Maneater warband, my feeling is that they are in no way broken or too pwerful. On the contrary, they are very difficult to play, and it takes a skilled strategist to succeed with them. The main problem with playing the Maneaters is balancing income and getting new recruits. A well equipped ogre costs somewhere near 90 gc, and when you have few models almost all of them are heroes, and then one or two goes out of action=less income+the risk of having one of them die on you...

Have you actually played the warband, or played against them? Try that first. I think you will revise your view on them being too cheap.

Nope, haven't used them yet. Still in a 'normal' Mordheim campaign, with plans to try BtB after we're done. I was just looking through the rules and this jumped out at me. If you say this has been playtested and that they'll work out fine, I'll take your word for it and not advocate for any sweeping changes.

Perhaps part of the problem was that in the current campaign I almost went with Ostlanders, just so I could have 2 ogres in my warband (a henchman and a hired sword). When I saw a warband with 12 ogres in it, my jaw dropped.

But while I have you guys here, perhaps you could answer a few BtB questions?

(1) For Marauders, they can buy mutations. Under the Corrupted Characters list, there are expanded Possessed Mutations, and god-specific mutations. Can they buy from the expanded possessed mutations? If marked, can a character buy from the god-specific mutations?

(2) If a model has crystaline body (T6, W1) and becomes a daemon prince, he still stays at W1, right? And if a model finds an item that increases their T or W, would they increase because the increase is from the item? (I'm thinking things such as the gromril armor from the core rulebook, which may be an issue if we keep the updated possessed mutation lists for other campaigns)

(3) More of a general question, but just to clear it up: If a model is str 3 and has art of silent death (crit on a 5), and the enemy is T4, what do they get a crit on? A 5+ or a 6+? And if a model is str 3 and has art of silent death, and the enemy is T6, what does he get a crit on, if at all?

I played the ogres, but nor in a campaign. I can say they are hitting hard.

But on the other side you only start start with 5 models. 2 full size ogre and 3 young bloods who are not very strong.

I would only recommend to lower their max models to 8 or ten for the long campaign run.

Bur i never played them so long to really be an expert.

1) I guess the Corrupted Characters list counts as optional rules, so you would have to talk to your group if you can use it, and then yes, I suppose you can roll on this chart. With God specific charts, it says in the rules you can use the Nurgle mutations if you take the Mark of Onogal, and I think should you use the expanded rules, it would be sensible to allow for mutations of the respective mark to be taken.

2) The rules for daemon prince say they get +1W, not sure which would take priority here. Same with the items, not sure which rules take priority.

3) I think if you can't wound, you can't crit.


And sure, if you at some stage reach 12 ogres, it will be a force to be reckoned with, but I think it takes quite some time

Having the Ogre warband max at 12 models which is the same limit as the Standard dwarf max certainly would scare me, but I don't think anything else about them really does.

Nothing much for me to add. The fact of the matter is that what you see on paper is not always what you see on the battlefield. Maneater warbands suffer quite considerably in their opening 4 or 5 games. By the time they get to the 7th game the tables tend to turn in the ogres favour! At least they do if they haven't retired already.

Here is a scorecard from round 10 of the Mordheim campaign we are currently playing in the city-port of Marienburg. Everyone please take special notice of the warband out in pole position!



I imagine it will be easy for folks to get excited about seeing the different warbands listed here, including numerous gangs exclusive to the MiM setting.

Staying on topic though, please note that there is a tactically proficient player who has been struggling on with Ogre Maneaters. His commitment has began to pay off since winning a couple of battles in the recent rounds including a multi-player fight. We run quite a few multi-player scenarios. Hours spent plotting, hiding and eventually ending in carnage, well sometimes.

Regards,

Werekin

Is still say my only concern is the max warband members, now in all likleyhood it's unlikely to ever be a concern but I do fee that with Ogres able to reach 12 in number seems a little harsh for everyone else.... 8-10 seems more reasonable, after all they can purchase Gnoblars too. Overall that is my only concern and as I said, the odds of them making it to 12 members isn't great anyway.

Another BtB question: What exploration chart should be used? I can't find one on the website, so I assume it is the Empire in Flames one, aye?

Also, as a shameless plug, this will be an online campaign. So anyone here who would like to join us is more than welcome!

The BTB website seems to be structured a bit odd. The top section of the main page (http://bordertownburning.de.vu/home.html) contains a link to the full supplement and a link to the errata. I could not find this link elsewhere on the BTB website though. This full PDF contains the exploration chart for Border Town Burning along with all of the other files and other material not available in the individual PDFs. The exploration chart is very different to the other exploration charts and has been carefully tailored for BTB so I wholly recommend downloading the PDF and reading it.

I have been play testing the Maneater warband for almost a month now. I do not think it is over powered. I lose as many games as I win. The key with taking out an Ogre appears to be multiple charges or committing a Hero to attack the Ogre.

Overpowered? Not really. My warband consists of a Captain, a Guide, and two Youngbloods. I have ironfists on eveyone but the guide and light armor on the captain and the guide. I am using the maneater list that is in the BTB supplement. It does not list gnoblars or as a henchmen type, so I have no experience with them. It also does not mention Butchers. I think if my Ogre warband could cast spells, it could possibly cause it to be overpwered.

You can purchase Gnoblars as misc items similar to warhounds (or was it war dogs?). See the New Equipment chapter for the rules.

I guess there is no longer a need for the website as it is. At least I could take down all those individual downloads. There was a time when the individual downloads were more up-to-date with a few corrections here and there while the full download was not yet updated. This is no longer the case so I should propably take it down.

Cool. That will be a nice thing to add. Where do i find the butcher rules and casting table/recipe s?

Not on Border Town Burning. Those rules are part of a different ogre warband which I've seen but don't know where it came from anymore.

@Cianty--I really like the individual downloads as they make finding things easier.

No worries, i found them. But they are too much trouble and are probably
make the band broken.

Von Kurst wrote:

@Cianty--I really like the individual downloads as they make finding things easier.

Ha! That's nice to hear! Well, the site will go eventually. We'll see.

The site will go? Are you taking it down?

Do Gnoblar Fighters gain experience?

Egon vom Berg wrote:

Do Gnoblar Fighters gain experience?

What confuses me is that in BTB p.33 it states under Gnoblar Fighter:
"Gnoblars do not count as animals. In all other respects they are treated like War Dogs with the following additional special rules. Gnoblars count as Greenskins but do not suffer from Animosity."

So they are not animals, which means they do gain experience.
But are treated like War Dogs which means they don´t gain experience.

But since there is no characteristic increase profile for Gnobrlars I guess they don´t gain experience.

Not my area of expertise, since I've not used the BTB rules but...

cianty wrote:

You can purchase Gnoblars as misc items similar to warhounds (or was it war dogs?). See the New Equipment chapter for the rules.

I'd read this to mean Gnoblars are Equipment, & don't gain experience. From the look of it, that seems the intention, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Egon vom Berg wrote:

.......So they are not animals, which means they do gain experience........

Not true, Zombies are not animals but gain no experience.

robh wrote:

Egon vom Berg wrote:

.......So they are not animals, which means they do gain experience........

Not true, Zombies are not animals but gain no experience.

How do you know it? Because Zombies have an special rule explaing it.

Zombie No Brain Rule (p. 70, Living Rule Book) wrote:

"No Brain: Zombies never gain experience. They do not learn from their mistakes. What did you expect?"

But nothing like that is explained for Gnoblars Fighters.
So how to go about it?

Oh well, I tried.

Interesting question about the gnoblars. It seems clear to me that they are not supposed to gain experience, but it is definitely not stated outright anywhere.

Looking at the Animal (Wardog) equipment from the rulebook, it combines two different conceptual key words, I think.

- "Animal" (doesn't actually say outright other than in the name, but a given)
- "Companion" (a warrior that is bought as equipment)

The entry states that Wardogs do not gain experience, but doesn't state whether that is because they are animals or companions. This then makes the gnoblar tricky, since he is a companion, but not an animal.

As Egon says, the fact that there is no mention of skills or stat maxes for gnoblars suggests very strongly that they are not meant to be able to gain XP. And I would venture that it is because they are companions, and that the underlying assumption is that no warrior that counts as equipment can gain XP. XP is only for "real" warband members, not living equipment.