Bretonnian Chapel Guard

This is an intersting idea, and it works well with the slaves of the arabian nomads, but it does not fit to the idea of the warband.

But you are right why not testing it. It would be a kind of not so honorable Bretonian warband more a dark fantasy version of them, which would send the scum into the close combat.

If I remember by design the bowmen are also to double as M@A's so just play them as M@A's in this case. Then you have a reason to send in the filthy masses fluff wise.

I played two games tonight with the chapel guard.

This was the first time that armour helped. I got 3 saves against crossbows and dog attacks..

Guiding vision worked very well too, three close combats were decided by this fine spell.

And this time my always strike last approach was not punished by bad luck.

My bowmen still do not hit anything but they are a sufficient range combat threat.

I also hired a tactican for the warband, who plays like another knight. He was sucessful too ( 2 ooa)

This time the close combat concept worked. I believe it is a fine and balanced warband. I will test the pilgrims soon, but i liked the way it worked out yet.

I have not played again in some time (had a move and have been trying to get organized and clear a good gameing space in the new house). My main reason to post is because I just want to let you know I have not forgotten about these noble knights and my desire to continue to test them.

Great work StyrofoamKing. I love Brets but their original list as well as other variants are uninspiring. This has much more flavor. Great to see grail pilgrims.

The only element I'm not sold completely on is the Damsel's spells. Here are my suggestions.

1) Change Lady's Favor to Diff 8 - All Heroes and Battle Pilgrims gain a 6+ save which may be taken after failed armor saves in the same manner as those offered by Step Aside & Dodge skills. If the warrior already has the appropriate skill for their circumstance (injured by shooting or in combat), they may reroll this save. This spell lasts until your next shooting phase.

This makes the Damsel a more active caster, since she needs to pray on the group's behalf each turn to sustain the Lady's protection.

2) Remove Blessed Protection spell and change Lady's Scorn to include spell attacks. Raise the difficulty to 8.

3) Add one of the Prayers of Taal to the list. I suggest Tangle Foot, or Summon Squirrels. Or make a new nature type spell, perhaps something that affects enemy animals.

Since you like to work with precedents those spells would be easy to co opt. It would be appropriate to add a nature spell to bring in something similar to Lore of Beasts from Fantasy since you already have aspects of Life & Heavens.

Otherwise, I really like what you've done. I will give it a try.

Quote :

Chivalry
No Knight may ever use any missile weapon at all, with the exception of Holy Water. Likewise, they will never use any drug or poison, nor learn any spells (prayers are allowed).

Reading this I was struck, can a knight learn as well the Prayers of the Lady and if so "how". Tomb of magic is magic but would it be the way?

Also would the "Holy Tome" in this rule set be opened up the the Bretonnian's?

I don't really know any Warhammer universe fluff but why not? It would be pretty cool to turn one of your knights into a paladin.

oh fluff wise it's a no go I know that for sure... in Bretonnia all males able to cast vanish and are never seen again (females return as adults).
but rule wise I fully agree with you it would be cool

I have now played the warband 5 times (over a year ago) and am about to launch them in a campaign (online) using mostly standard rules and also again at home with my son. This will give me some more test games for them to rack up fast (I hope).
With that said here is my observations based on my limited games and looking at the rules vary close as well.

Heroes:
Questing Knight vs. Mercenary Captain,
Looking at both leaders you see the QK cost +15 gc for no difference in stats and same number of skill charts.
The QK does get some extra rules though.
A reduced option in weapons (no shooting) but gains the ability to start the game with cheaper armor or warhorse and not effected by All Alone Test.
Also the QK starts with the Ride skill.
This leads me to think that the QK is over priced by probably 5GC.


Knight Errant vs. Mercenary Champion,
On close inspection the Knights Errant look to be too expensive or under powered.
They have a base state line for a human for 35gc. This is the same cost as a Mercenary Champion.
Champions have +1 WS
KE have a list of special rules; break down of good vs. bad.
Pro: Limited weapons choices, No helmets, Must charge if they can.
Con: Immune to All Alone Test, immune to fear when charging, and reduced cost of armor or horse when starting.
The end result here is that they balance out to a net 0 change in cost IMHO.
The Knight Errant does have access to one more skill chart though.
This puts KE at a slight disadvantage vs. the Mercenary Champion due to the Champions +1 WS
KE could instead of starting with +1 WS could start with the Ride skill as well like the QK to allow for more effective mounted warriors. I lean to the Ride skill as it fits better.

Damsel vs. Young Bloods,
Not the best comparison but it’s the last open comparison stat wise.
The Damsel for +25gc gets +1 BS (useless), +1 Initiative, +1 LD, and a spell.
The spells of the Damsel are good even with her vary limited equipment list (no shooting and no armor) but this isn’t bad. She also starts with 12 exp so stat wise she is just right for that.

Over all I think that the Mercenaries do have an edge in heroes but not by much. This edge is mainly due the QK and KE being over priced for what they do.
Even with the extra experienced hero that the Bretonnian’s have here I think that there extra hero just doesn’t work out exp wise.
My thinking is ether the KE need a boost (+1WS or Ride skill) or an exp reduction (6 exp).
I am inclined to think the Exp drop (or Ride skill) as KE are young knights but are experienced some but still have yet to prove them selves in combat. Thus they are glorified Young Bloods who are better trained and better equipped.
Also to justify the lower Exp if that rout is taken on a hero the official Averlanders have a hero that starts with 4 exp.



Henchmen:

Squires are just right from what I can tell. There promotion rules are good and as they are the only henchmen that can get LGT the limited numbers doesn’t make them too strong.

Bowmen fell right over all as well. They are cheap and expendable and can pull double duty as ether archers or M@A’s. I am thinking they should also be able to use Halberds to highlight the M@A’s stance and be able to use the Bretonnian’s M@A’s box set for them.

Pilgrims I have now used in a few games and have yet to find them be useful. There rules are good and there stats feel right to there fluff so there is no problem there.
The fact you can give them a Holy Relic that effectively makes them a new unit is also cool.
So here is what I see (look at them as 2 different units):
*Pilgrim w/out Relic:
For 30 gold you get stat line wise a unit you would pay about 15-20gc for.
He has Stubborn to make him have high leadership for +5gc.
He also has Hatred for effectively a high WS for +5gc
Low Cast makes him also never able to become a hero worth -5gc on these henchmen only because of how scary his rules would be if he could become a hero.
You could also direct compare them with Flagellants from the Witch Hunter warband. For +10 GC you gain +1 WS, +1 BS (useless), +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, +2 LD, have a better rule for leadership, lose hatred, and can become a hero.
Hatred we can count as the same as the +1 WS, and the leadership rules we can counter out with each other though the Pilgrim can get a near worthless +1 LD.
The BS is also useless for both (though a Flagellant as a hero can use thrown weapons).
Thus the Strength and Toughness do equal out to the +10 gold but the low cast again is a -5gc.
End result is he is justified at about 25gc (2 different calculations to get here).
*Pilgrim with Relic
For 55gc you get a vary week stat line worth 15-20gc.
You also get Frenzy on a henchman that can never become a hero. So that’s not bad in the least.
Cost though may be an issue here.
Frenzy negates Hatred and the Stubborn rule (though it has them as a reserve after knocked down). But is Frenzy worth 25gc on a henchman who can never become a hero?
Well at best they will gain +1 Attack thus have 5 attacks (2 with a two handed weapon) that are strength 3 (5 with two handed weapon that strikes last).
With +1 Attack and even +1 Strength (5 strength 4 hits) I can see as quite worth wild but not quite at 55gc considering the long wait needed to get such a beast.
So my fix here is again the lowered cost of the Pilgrim but would it be worth it at 50gc?
Probably not still but the balance/trade off is that you don’t make that investment until you got the Pilgrim that already has the advancements.
So here is my fix for the Pilgrims.
Lower there Cost to 25gc or what I think would be a better fix; bump there toughness to 4. This would make them a tank and with there low WS one that won’t hit often. This will make them worth 30gc and even frenzied make it harder to lose the Frenzy and thus also worth the +25gc for the frenzy (with the right advancements already) for a henchmen.
They thus fit fluff wise as vary tough and stubborn not breaking from combat and not going down easy but at the same time never really killing anything. Hatred and Frenzy make them able to kill some but even then not a whole lot.


Magic:

I have little experience here with playing the magic phase as I have only really got to use Flood Gate of Courage (5 games with one warband with this spell). I have just started a new warband that rolled this spell again.

1: Lady’s Favors- I like the idea a lot as is.
2: Blessed Protection- Vary situational and maybe the casting cost is a bit high considering that you then must roll again to dispel a spell. The spell has roughly a 73% chance of casting and then once cast a 50% chance of working. Thus most times that you can use the spell it will work. It does have the nice ability to only need to cast it one time with a 33% chance of needing to cast it each turn so that’s nice to have around.
End result though I think ether the magic ward needs to be improved or the casting needs to be made easier. I would also have no problem with the spell dissipating on a 1-3 (50% of the time). Difficulty of 6 or ward of 3+ with a 1-3 it dissipating.
3: Flood Gate of Courage- I have not won any games due to this spell but it has done its job just fine for me and works perfectly from what I can see.
4: Lady’s Scorn-I like the idea of this spell a lot but I think it should be an AOE spell with a higher casting. Just protecting the Damsel seams wrong as a support hero. Something like how Blessed Protection works with a radios and a roll that is a ward save effectively.
5: Elixir of Life- Looks good as it is.
6: Guiding Vision- Also looks good as is.

Magic I can’t say too much on as I said but those are the things that stood out as I looked over the magic list a few times and saw two spells as ones I would never want starting out as they would prove to be useless far too often.

My son was on spring break this last week so we chose to start a new campaign with just the two of us. Nothing major but he chose Pirates and I chose Chapel Guard.

We were by the end of the week and 4 games tied at 2/2 so with that I was quite happy.
with our house rules armor gets a nice boost and price reduction thus no lords boon rule.
All my knights ran around in heavy armor and did there job great even if in the first game one knight died and when re purchased he meet the same fate in game 2!
My warband as is normal for me took some heavy losses in the post game with henchmen but as bowmen are so cheap and I'm running them as M@A's I don't care too much... One such M@A managed to OOA 2 models (one cabin boy) in a game.

Now I did notice that my knights though they stood there ground well in all games (and peasants died in droves) the knights still only do well because of equipment. Thus they stand there ground and take a beating but can't deal it out well.
Not saying they need a change per say here, just making the observation.

Magic. with our house rules you chose your starting spell for magic users but after that rules are normal.
My prayer choice was Guiding Vision.
The spell is too good as it is. it's effects I like and think work great but with out it having a range or requiring LOS it was too easy for me to protect my Damsel (who never was in distress) by hide her in my deployment zone and just cast her spell every turn.
I think LOS and/or Range is needed for this spell or a serious difficulty boost.
I would rather LOS and some High Range (18" maybe) to make her more vulnerable.

I have not tried the Pilgrims again but may in the near future.

Thanks for this update too.

I also like guiding vision very much and had the same feeling about being too powerful, but the witchs spell Scry has the same power. So it is ok for me.

I started to use it as support for my bowman but ended up to use it for my squires or knights in hand to hand combat.

The bad thing is the damsel only get exp by surviving and collect wyrd stone or something like that.

I currently play the chapel guard in a solo campaign i am working on. I love the background and character of the warband.

Maybe i post the rules sometimes.

Very nice warband list, StyrofoamKing.

A player in my gaming group is interested in playing Bretonnians for our next campaign, after his greenskins finish the current one. I will definetly encourage him to use your list instead of the official one.

My only point of criticism is the guiding vision. We house-ruled the witch's Scry to give either re-rolls OR modifiers. The combinations with some heroes were far to powerful (a warp-lightning-throwing skaven with re-rolls dominated our last campaign like hell^^).

While I read you aren't that proud of your pdf - if you wish, I could turn it into an officially looking one with Adobe InDesign.

Regarding you rbalancing of scry: I can understand that, especially if a player was mighty withnthis spell. On the other side there is no guarantee that the witch does have the scry spell.

@Styro: he has not posted for a long time unfortunately. Maybe he will come back some time. Because the chapel guard would earn an official looking pdf.

I also checked your campaign blog and i really like your campaign. I wish you would also post a battle report from time to time. But i really like your campaign. Excellent job. I would join you if i lived more in your area.

best regards

Thank you for liking the blog, battle reports would be nice that's right. Just have to motivate my players to do some or stop forgetting to take pictures & notes for my Black Dwarfs.

Yep, the Skaven had luck with that 33% chance for scry, but otherwise the witch would have been rehired until she got the spell.^^
We currently banned her completely. In most of my campaigns, she got spamed and it's better to have no witch around than witches everywhere.

btt:
Styro was last online one week ago, so I have hope that he'll be back soon.

Update: did an alpha version without graphics during my lunch break, hope it suits you.

click here

Nice job

well done.

might be cool to add a few images of models specifically made for the Chapel Guard... I know SerialMoM has some on here.
Maybe it would inspire some of us to finish and post ours

Hey,

Quick Question regarding the Virtue of Purity rule:

"Virtue of Purity: Knights with the Virtue of Purity are may
never voluntarily break from combat, unless he is knocked
down."

Is this saying the Knight may combat only if HE is knocked down?

OR

Is it saying he may only leave combat once his Opponent is Knocked down?

Also on top of this, a bit of nit picking, but the wording regardless of which way you use it, does not mean he can leave combat if the roll was a stun.

Skip

@Pervavita:

here is the link to my gallery for the brettonian Chapel Guard
https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5410-serialmoms-bretonnian-chapel-guard-new-pics-12062012?highlight=serialmoms

@skispence : i think the first sentence is ment. The highlight is on break the combat (described in the optional rules of the vanilla rules). If your opponent is down i think it is still valid to attack another warrior or simply go away because this movement would not be a break movement.

@coppermind thanks for posting. I will check it if i am on my computer. Normally i surf with my ipad and with this i can not open any of your google links.

though this is far from being a matter of grave importance, and this warband has been around long enough that you probably are past the point of needing this sort of comment, i can't help but feel that the broadsword is maybe over costed.

I normally prefer to err on the side of making things I come up with cost too much rather than too little, but looking it over, i think its more of a 10gc weapon than 15.

Though obviously its supposed to be a sword, rules wise it has more in common with the halberd. It has the benefit over the halberd of being able to use a shield with it, but at the same time, it strikes last. I'd say those two definitely even it out to where I'd expect them to cost the same.

I'm by no means whatsoever a power player, but as much as i thematically love the idea of the knight with the broad sword and kite shield, i'd be hard pressed to arm one that way, especially at creation if i could arm him with a sword and a mace for less than the cost of the broadsword and be way more combat effective.

@whiskeytango: That two weapons are more powerful than weapon and shield or a two handed weapon is clear as long you do not use house rules. The broadsword is compared to the morning star the same as the two handed weapon compared to the flail. The morning star, flail and twohanded weapon costs the same 15gc, so the broadsword should also cost 15gc. I also belive that the flail and morning star are weaker in comparison to the two handed weapons and broadsword.

The best price value combination is mace and dagger for three gc. Everything is luxury and only for background of warbands important.

We play with nerfed second hand weapon and improved shield rules, to not punish a player with a well planned and balanced warband list with a good background.

The broad sword has felt to expensive on paper to me but I have played a few games with it and don't think it is. As SerialMoM said it's price is on par with a Great Weapon or Flail and for what it does it is also on par... maybe even better as it counts as a sword for Expert Swordsmen.
If you play with house rules that help balance the weapon choices then the broad sword fits in nice.

@skispence: I take this rule for breaking from combat to be that the Knight can only if he himself has been knocked down so he can recover in safety.

New version online, including gap-closing pictures of SerialMoM's miniatures (hope that's okay like this, only used little photoshop on them).

I was just looking over the latest version and saw a problem in the PDF. the Bowmen entry is the Battle Pilgrim info (fluff).

True indeed, it's been a while that I took a look at that pdf. ^^°
The InDesign file should be located somewhere in the depths of my projects folder.

I work on the Sealed City setting once again at the moment and should release new pdfs this or next week. After that I can revisit the Chapel Guard.