Priests of the Empire

Additional guidelines about (i) warbands must replace a wizard Hero with a priest if they have one (ii) this includes replacing a wizard leader with a priest (iii) replacing an elf Hero with a Priest of Mathlann (same as Mariner-Priest of Manann except +1 Movement, -1 Toughness)

And the public thinks Amazons should be allowed to hire a War-Priestess!?

Purify was certainly a choice prayer to combat the effects of Nurgle warriors resilience and fortitude. The bloated foulness of Onogal's Mark being a choice example. There are other prayers but this one was a tabletop winner despite high casting cost. The article was promised to deliver ways and means to combat any serious boosts available in Corrupted Characters.

At this stage there's no point in rehosting the source file. I've made too few revisions to bother. The more solid feedback gathered based on players hiring priest the more likely this will happen. There will certainly be a revised copy in the MiM campaign supp. Manann, Handrich & Solkan are all pretty huge in Marienburg.

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And the public thinks Amazons should be allowed to hire a War-Priestess!?

Since it seems that the use of the Priest was kind of a 'counts as', I wouldn't go that far. Unless perhaps you fancied re-writing the Amazon list?

Maybe a poll?

That works for the wizard/priest rules.

Von Kurst wrote:

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And the public thinks Amazons should be allowed to hire a War-Priestess!?

Since it seems that the use of the Priest was kind of a 'counts as', I wouldn't go that far. Unless perhaps you fancied re-writing the Amazon list?

Maybe a poll?

well isn't that how it applies as well in the case of say Manann, Morr, Ranald, Shallna, Sigmar, Taal, and Verena. All are "Any Human Warband" except a few exclude a few warbands and Amazons are not excluded.
You could even say Cathay, and probably a few others out there.

Also there is that in many cases some gods go by diffrent names (Taal or Rhyn or Karog) as these are the known names to the races or cultures listed. Yet the Amazons or even some other cultures not as much information is known of them and such it could with ease be argued that the same god/goddess or one of near identical powers is present to the Amazons or any other culture (say the un explored [as far as I know] North America or future Australia regions).

Actually the leading Amazon deity has been named in the WFRP fluff. You can presumably reference it online. The name escapes me at this time.

The Amazon warband list has been written and published twice. If anything this does confuse how to play them. I advised the guy in my campaign to cherry-pick what he needs from both articles. I also adapted some of the racial traits for the Achievements scored when following Objectives from one of the Marienburg campaign plot arcs.

I never read any of the WFRP info but will look into it.
Still with in the published information on the Amazons for the Totem Warriors is it states more then one god. That is my bassis for having them open to more then one god/goddess.

I only have one of the Amazon publications. I would guess that the 2 are based on one for Lustria and another for Mordheim.

question: if the priest replaces the leader will the priest also have a starting 20 exp?
if so will they gain 3 advancments? +1 WS, +1 BS, +Leader skill?

Back in the 80s the Amazons worshipped the Goddess Rigg (Diana Rigg).

I admit to having not found any reference to mulltiple gods in Totem warrior text (either version of the warband), but I have missed many things before and probably will again. And its all made up stuff anyway.

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They are the Totem Warriors – Amazons that follow animal totems like the Eagle, Pirahna, Jaguar, etc, and adorn themselves in the skins and feathers of their patron gods.

Bold part that I am reffering to.
It states gods infering more then one god. As Myrmidia is the Eagle (reffering to "Eagle Friend" and "Order of the Eagle") and the Amazon text specifies "Eagle" above I would infer from this text that the Amazons also follow a god/goddess of Eagles thus the link I make.


I admit I'm not the biggest fluff guy when it comes to the WH world. I enjoy the fluff but I never got into it like many people... $$ being one of the reasons. Also I was vary in to in my younger years into the fluff of White Wolf games (Vampire the Masquerade, Hunter, ext) and now as a family man I don't have the cash to invest in getting the old books to catch all the fluff.

Thanks for quoting the text. I find myself skipping lots of words in text these days, must be something to this talk of eminent senility, or perhaps its more like selective perception.

Rules or no it would be odd for Amazons to be worshippers of Sigmar and still be Amazons. I think GW calls women who worship Sigmar Sisters of Sigmar.

I am not a big fan of 2 or more magic/prayer users as choices for a warband. We recently suffered an Arabyan warband with a priest of Mannan and the stock wizard that never lost. So I like the idea of limiting the priest to warbands with no magic users or as a swap. Swapping out leaders becomes overly fidldly if you must change stats, costs and such. I noticed you left out cost... Magic/prayer using leaders cost around 70 gc to hire but the MW priests already vary in cost and ability.

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Rules or no it would be odd for Amazons to be worshippers of Sigmar and still be Amazons. I think GW calls women who worship Sigmar Sisters of Sigmar.

Or if they wear monster-hunter hats and fire flintlocks, Witch Hunters, in the case of at least two novels I've read.

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Swapping out leaders becomes overly fidldly if you must change stats, costs and such.

Agreed. Don't even go there. Although if you simply must retire your natural warband leader instead of waiting for him to croak, just apply the basic characteristics plus the leader ability, as per normal.

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For Ulric; the wolf friend skill feels off.
I like the idea but the problem I see with it is that the friend is a henchmen that takes a skill to hire but if it dies it can suffer from the same bad luck with dice as a normal henchmen (33% chance of death).
The wolf has no noticable bonus over a warhound ether.
So in short it's a henchmen that leaves the battle if the hero is taken OOA and cost a hero advancment to get.

Was this the intent?

Also does the wolf friend take up a slot in the warband (count into the max 15 members), count for warband rating, deviding up spoils (income), and rout test?

Sorry, I totally missed this before.

There is something off about this, because of the way we have all of these crazy upkeep and numerical guidelines in the Mordheim rules.

The RPG rules concerning Marks are tightly themed where as the stuff in Town Cryer for Ulrican Priests is untidy and loose against the background for this priesthood.

What the Miracle Workers article seems to be missing is some detail regarding the freespirited nature of these wolf companions. An animal would always counts towards the total number of warriors in the warband for the purposes of rout tests, upkeep costs and defining the maximum number of models allowed. There are aspects of this that feel like like they ought not to apply to wolf companions.

Upkeep/income is the main issue here I think with the wolves being creatures called from the wild to aid the wolf-priest.

Also, because they act like nature spirits, it may be prudent to rule that they only get taken out of action on the roll of a 1. Or else, the Mark is somewhat precarious.

Is this what you mean?

This might be too powerfull, but since it is a skill, the mark could allow the priest to call D3 wolves per game like the skaven spell. This eliminates the worry about upkeep, etc.

Otherwise the old wolf companion from the TC was the better deal. The TC rules are imperfect, but they fit a variety of situations and imparted a bit of fluff. The role-playing adaptation is very situational and not particularily useful in game terms. As I mentioned in the Priest of Ulric thread, our Middenheim player read the rules and laughed when I recommended he use the Miracle Worker priest. He kept to the basic warband instead.

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As I mentioned in the Priest of Ulric thread, our Middenheim player read the rules and laughed when I recommended he use the Miracle Worker priest. He kept to the basic warband instead.

It's horses for courses in terms of power you might say. Anyone who looks at the surface value of getting a wolf at the start at the deficit of an inefficient set of prayers will refer to Town Cryer. Players who take the time to read the article properly are going use it to benefit from the rewarding Marks whilst taking advantage of the improved list of prayers I've devised, then offer feedback accordingly.

Some emphasis on the wolf/wolves detaching themselves from the warband to roam the wilds between games needs to be made for the Mark. The Wolf-Priest calling any companions he has made back to the game at the start of each game. In fact, I think it's fair to say that even if the wolf-friend dies, the priest would call up another wolf before the start of the next battle*. On this basis there is better logic taking the Mark more than once.

*Indeed meaning no Injury rolls being required post battle for companions that go out of action.

werekin wrote:

Some emphasis on the wolf/wolves detaching themselves from the warband to roam the wilds between games needs to be made for the Mark. The Wolf-Priest calling any companions he has made back to the game at the start of each game. In fact, I think it's fair to say that even if the wolf-friend dies, the priest would call up another wolf before the start of the next battle. On this basis there is better logic taking the Mark more than once.

I totally agree with your thoughts on wolf companions being called from the wild for a battle. Having them count towards the maximum warriors for a rout but without requiring upkeep and without maxing out the warband is very useful. You mentioned the possibility earlier for wolf companions to only go OOA on a 6. I see no need for this if wolf companions cannot permanently die as such.

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Agreed. Don't even go there. Although if you simply must retire your natural warband leader instead of waiting for him to croak, just apply the basic characteristics plus the leader ability, as per normal.

The problem with that is the fact that you get no advantage to make a priest the leader and you cannot replace it if he die.

Hmm... better keep it as a normal hero I guess....

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The problem with that is the fact that you get no advantage to make a priest the leader and you cannot replace it if he die.

This was never the intention. A priest is able to become a warband leader. As in most cases, this happens in the event of the death of a leader, as explained on the first page of the article.

A few nice quotes here from a member of the Myrmidian priesthood that I noticed in 'Knight of the Blazing Sun' by Joshua Reynolds.

"This is Marienburg, lad. People are always talking. Incessantly, as a matter of fact. Can't get them to shut up."

"We might be priests, but we are capable of fighting. Indeed, most of the younger initiatives look forward to it."

"We're playing dice with the gods themselves, boy. Pray we win this throw and all the ones that follow."
-Abbott Knock, Priest of Myrmidia.

Ulric:
if the mark summons one wolf each battle that counts for the rout test but doesn't count against max warband size or upkeep and in effect can't die then I think this works well.

Amazons:
Yes it is odd that Amazons would follow Sigmar in any form just as it would be for Battle Monks, Brettonians, or some other warband.
This is why I go with the idea that the priest would take a form for other cultures... This is already accounted for in a few cases (Manann/Olovald or Ranald/Handrich/Gunndred).
The fluff can be made for a connection in many cases to justify.


Leader:
Forgot cost, it was not left out for the reason to think it should be excluded.
As to the stats and such, I'm fine with just keeping the Priest the same except adding the Leader skill (and any other "leader" bonuses that come with being leader). I was just asking about it based on the option that was put there to replace the leader with a Priest at start up.

Never worth hiring a priest as leader unless the captain dies.

None of the leaders are that shit!

I understand that, but if your leader dies you can't "replace" it with the Priest as the slot would already have been gone and you have to replace one of your other heroes to get the Priest unless I'm mistaken on my reading of the rules or your intent.

But I am thinking it may not be that bad of an idea to replace the leader with a priest in some cases.
your leader now has less starting exp meaning faster advancment and customization of your leader sooner.
8 less exp = 3 less advancments gets you a few less skill options and 3 customizable upgrades with same leadership (for humans). You also have a lower warband ratting that some may want.
Not saying this is the best path just saying there may be value in it.

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(iii) replacing an elf Hero with a Priest of Mathlann (same as Mariner-Priest of Manann except +1 Movement, -1 Toughness)

Was thinking about this and had a few questions.
1: Is this meant to be just in the case of Manann or should this not apply to all elven priest? Reason I ask is that the elves may be a little more closed and interested in there own priest and if elves wounder to the realm (location of game) then odds are that elven priest may have headed there too.
2: should there not be a note saying that this hero is an elf? obvious yes but by making such a note will save people trouble.
3: if elves get elven priest should there be dwarf rules too? -1 move, +dwarf special rules?

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I understand that, but if your leader dies you can't "replace" it with the Priest as the slot would already have been gone and you have to replace one of your other heroes to get the Priest unless I'm mistaken on my reading of the rules or your intent.

The articles states if your leader snuffs it you're allowed to hire a Priest to replace him. That's pretty straightforward.

The elf priest is an elf of course. Goes without saying. Dwarfs worship ancestor gods bearing no similarity to gods from the Empire of men.

Still not 100% on this "cannot have a priest and a wizard" in the same warband. It seems like a stupid deal.

I personally do not think that magic is overpowered in Mordheim, Empire in Flames, BtB or elsewhere.

As long as the spells / prayers are not overpowered it should work.

In our group we allow the priests of empire as well as the storm of magic rules ( from Styrofoamking).

But currently we do not allow two magic/prayer users as heroes in a warband, because we also allow to choose the first spell during the warband generation process.

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The articles states if your leader snuffs it you're allowed to hire a Priest to replace him. That's pretty straightforward.

so this is effectivly allowing people to rebuy there dead leader?
I just want to make sure of that. Not sure I agree with this as it's a big advantage to those warbands that can not use these rules.

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The elf priest is an elf of course. Goes without saying.

Is this to all elf priest? rules state only Manann getting the mod.
It is obvious to some/most but the simple wording put into the rules stating it will help remove questions as this kind of thing happens from time to time.

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Dwarfs worship ancestor gods bearing no similarity to gods from the Empire of men.

So in this case the Dwarfs are picking up human priest and changing gods (converts)?
Why would they not bring a priest from home with them?

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Still not 100% on this "cannot have a priest and a wizard" in the same warband. It seems like a stupid deal.

I thought the intent was to allow warbands with out a magic phase to now have it?

I'll echo Pervavita here, on non-human deities. Perhaps add in some non-human gods?

Priests of Grungni, Grimnir and Valaya could replace the engineer in the dwarf list.

I suppose that for the actual rules, you could even mix it into those already written. Grungni=Sigmar (replace the ability that effects humans with affecting dwarfs). Grimnir=Solkan. Valaya=Shallaya. Make the priests cost 50ish gc and start off with dwarf stats.

The same works with elves. Replace the shadow weaver with a priest. Asuryan=Sigmar, Khaine=Solkan, Mathlaan=Mannan. Price increase goes with better elf stats.

You've already got a few options for priests to worship different gods (ie: instead of Mannan there is Stromfels and the god of the rivers, whose name I can't recall, as well as Mathlaan). This just gives a nod to non-human gods.

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The articles states if your leader snuffs it you're allowed to hire a Priest to replace him. That's pretty straightforward.

so this is effectivly allowing people to rebuy their dead leader?
I just want to make sure of that. Not sure I agree with this as it's a big advantage to those warbands that can not use these rules.

I'm not sure how allowing a warband to replace a fallen leader with a priest is effectively allowing the leader to be rebought.

I would think that this would be a huge advantage to warbands that could recruit priests and a disadvantage to warbands that could not.

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Dwarfs worship ancestor gods bearing no similarity to gods from the Empire of men.

So in this case the Dwarfs are picking up human priest and changing gods (converts)?
Why would they not bring a priest from home with them?

Good point. I think the Miracle Worker rules allow the Dwarfs the unlikely option of recruiting a human priest to campaign with them as a 'Dwarf friend', not as a spiritual advisor.

werekin wrote:

It's horses for courses in terms of power you might say. Anyone who looks at the surface value of getting a wolf at the start at the deficit of an inefficient set of prayers will refer to Town Cryer. Players who take the time to read the article properly are going use it to benefit from the rewarding Marks whilst taking advantage of the improved list of prayers I've devised, then offer feedback accordingly.

I like the idea of making the wolf friend mark essentially a 'free wolf' for each game. This makes the mark quite valuable and worth taking.

As far as the old TC list goes I expect that it is a matter of perspective as to wether the old prayers were 'inefficient' or not. Aside form the kind of fiddly Call of Ulric, (which could turn the priest into a wolf) the TC prayers are quite usefull in game terms.

Snow Squall, Difficulty 6. (-1 to hit for one hth combat with the priest)

Hammerschlag, Difficulty 10. (S4 hit on single model within 6")

Bloodlust, Difficulty 7. (Wolf Priest +2 S, crits on 5-6. YES!)

Wolf's Hunger, Difficulty 7. (Friendly model [priest's choice] gains frenzy.)

Ulric's Howl, Difficulty 10. (Same as Hearts of Steel, but harder for Ulric than Sigmar.)

Compared with the new list:

Frost's Bite, Difficulty 7. (Enemy model, 9" range, T test or suffer 1 wound.)

Heart of the Wolf, Difficulty 10. (As Ulric's Howl above. Still harder for Ulric than Sigmar.)

Hoarfrost Thews, Difficulty 8. (Immune to cold weather and magical cold based attacks.) So VERY useful in almost every game. This spell is a throw away unless you are campaigning in winter.

Ice Storm, Difficulty 11:!:(24" range. S5 attack vs target model?. Target and models within 2" must pass a T test or be stunned.)

Snow King's Decree, Difficulty 12:!: (6" range, S8 hit, but the target may avoid the attack if they pass a Ld test, if they are a "warrior")

What does the term "warrior" mean? 'Warrior' is a generic term used to refer to ALL members of a warband in ALL official Mordheim warbands, or it is a specific term for some types of fighters in human Mercenary warbands. What does 'warrior' mean in this context? Could a different term be used?

Wild Pack, Difficulty 8. (All enemy within 12" of priest are -1 WS for the next close combat phase.)

Conclusion:

I don't think one has to play any games to make comparisons amongst the lists of prayers. Most gamers have little odds calculators in their heads that say '7 likely', '12 not likely' and things like that. A prayer with a Difficulty of 12 better be damn good and useful to justify the unlikely event of its casting.

The Snow King's Decree misses that mark as it is currently written. Why 12? For that matter why have a Difficulty 11 prayer? Warpfire has a similar (but nastier)effect and is only an 8 to cast. Why doesn't Ulric listen to his clerics?

The Wolf Priest is the most expensive priest to hire. Another why? He was the same cost in the old TC rules, but there was no justification for his cost then either. A great improvement would be to make him much cheaper. 50 gc would be fine.

Von Kurst wrote:

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The articles states if your leader snuffs it you're allowed to hire a Priest to replace him. That's pretty straightforward.

so this is effectivly allowing people to rebuy their dead leader?
I just want to make sure of that. Not sure I agree with this as it's a big advantage to those warbands that can not use these rules.

I'm not sure how allowing a warband to replace a fallen leader with a priest is effectively allowing the leader to be rebought.

I would think that this would be a huge advantage to warbands that could recruit priests and a disadvantage to warbands that could not.

In a normal game you lose your leader (except Undead) the leader is dead and you promote another hero to "Leader" but the old leader's slot is gone and can't be re filled with the same hero type and thus you can only get back to the same number of heroes with LGT.
With this rule you can lose your leader and and hire a priest and have just rebought your leader.
May not be the same hero type but you maintain the higher number of heroes and don't have to wait for a LGT.

Yes your right. I miss wrote the above.

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Dwarfs worship ancestor gods bearing no similarity to gods from the Empire of men.

So in this case the Dwarfs are picking up human priest and changing gods (converts)?
Why would they not bring a priest from home with them?

Good point. I think the Miracle Worker rules allow the Dwarfs the unlikely option of recruiting a human priest to campaign with them as a 'Dwarf friend', not as a spiritual advisor.

That makes sense. I am bringing it up though as there is once case of the elves hiring a priest that gets elf stats (adjustments) and was thinking that if that is how it works there that it may work there in all cases.


@Grumbaki: Though I like the idea a lot but it may make it a lot more work to place a lot more gods with there own rules.
All I'm thinking needs done is open the gods up to be other gods to other nations... include simply the other gods names or in the over all description state that the gods can and do represent these gods persona in other cultures.
Then for if to have other races be included simply have a few sets of "adjustments" to the other 2 main races.
Elves: -1T, +1M
Dwarf: -1M, -1I, +Dwarf special rules (hard head, hard to kill, hate O&G).
It keeps the over all simple and doesn't mess with cost or the need to make more gods to the list.
There would in a few cases like you said a need to make "Grungni=Sigmar (replace the ability that effects humans with affecting dwarfs)." but these would be far and few between.