Are the Undead horrible?

unexpected plot twist indeed.

And might one add that it makes Mr. Dalasander The first necromancer to
fully resurrect the dead, Nagash would be proud, and to foil a pair of vain
vampires in doing so, well it shows class.

Nah, Cyndane's still a vampire, she just took the butt-end of the whole "sacrifice part of your spirit" rule. It's damaged her twice as much as anyone else, so that's she's squishy like a mortal now.

In any case he caused a bump in the road for the vampire, thats worth a gold star in the big book of nagash ^__^

I'm a little sketchy on my "who's who in Warhammer" lore... why does Nagash want vampires to have bumps in their roads?

It's more of a sneaking suspicion than a stated fact.
the necromantic timeline goes something like this:

Dark Elf--->Nagash--->vampires

They basicly stole the whole concept and kinda debased it
just as much as liches but with the added bonus
(Much I would assume through miscalculation) that they
need blood. this in turn makes them more or less glorified zombies
who only drink liquids.
It's like sitting in a cardboard box and calling it a time machine run of algorithms invented by Einstein.
I think it would tick any necromancer of
to have his lore represented by a bunch of parasites who kinda got it wrong.
(think immortal Albert Einstein with a grudge and the ability to wake every dead man woman and child in the empire by yawning in midsleep, as has happened a couple of times with good old Nagash.)

Although on a whole there has been much diplomatic effort between both nagash and the vampires (this mostly with the older families) One would assume that if it was smooth sailing and old grudges were forgotten things would probably run smoother,
so one can only guess that he wants to rule the roost himself and that would be hard if everything went to well for them.

Well, good for Nagash we now have the Spell of Undead Ratifying to correct those errs of the past.

Opheliate wrote:

Well, good for Nagash we now have the Spell of Undead Ratifying to correct those errs of the past.

No wonder the Skaven hated him, he took their magic without returning it, ate all their warpstone, drank all their booze and played his music to loud.

Zombies are terrible but that's what makes them great. The true expendability and fear-factor of the zombies is something that no other warband can lay claim to - since they gain no experience, you literally only lose 15 gold if one dies.

I played a game last night with fresh warbands, Skaven vs. my Undead. We played the scenario, forgot the name, where I had to deploy my models in a scattered formation all over the board and had some of my models in reserve. Ultimately, all of my models except the Nec started on the table.

Before the game I boldly stated "this is going to be a game of Pac-Man" and it was. My opponent basically chewed through four of my Zombies and I simply routed ASAP. Cheap, I know, and free XP for my opponent, but who cares really? I got 5 exploration dice plus maximum non-win experience, and only paid 15 to replace the OOA zombie from before.

The reason I love zombies so much is the way you can use them to control space on the battlefield. Putting them at the corner of a building prevents all reasonable charges around that corner, simply because the risk is too great. Do you really want to try that charge, with fear in effect? Even if you're successful, and you mow down the poor zombie, that's a whole extra turn that my Dregs and Vamp have to put distance between us. This may be known as the speed bump in many circles, but to me it's the "caution: detour" sign, because suddenly everything else is a more appealing alternative to getting stuck in the zombie swamp. And when you know where your opponent would rather be, you have a tactical advantage.

Zombies are sensational in numbers. I much prefer ten of them than six and four ghouls, because I don't even blink when I lose one. In fact, I count on it - as soon as I've lost four, I have the power to rout whenever I like, to save my vamps and dregs from impending death. I can advance them as a screen for my dregs, and overwhelm individual enemies, where my dregs clean up and gain extra experience.

Plus the fact that zombies treat stunned as KD, it means that it often requires a couple of turns to actually kill one. Speed bumping once again, but there's the added advantage of numbers - keeping one in combat until he's KD, then step another one in while the first gets up. Not just a speed bump, but a tyre clamp - since it takes less than three turns to get a vamp halfway across the board, you're basically locking the enemy down until the parking inspector shows up with a big sharp ticket.

I

My friend plays Undead and he usually hires a warlock. Try this out, it is a nasty way to get some magical firepower with your warband.

"In that first round, i lost 2 of my 3 dregs, just as they were starting to get some stats worth keeping them around for... they just seemed so fragile compared to everyone else's heroes. "

I think this bit of bad luck is part of your original problem too. Starting and remaining zombie heavy meant that the heroes's advances were even more important for you than most warbands (since the zombie henchies couldn't improve at all), and losing 40% of them was a major setback. Dregs are like youngbloods - crappy to start but potentially very powerful after a few games.

I have seen undead do quite well in campaigns, and they are always interesting to run/play against. Myself, when I run them I almost never take zombies or dire wolves, but concentrate on ghouls (I almost never invest in models that cannot earn experience).

ebon_tower wrote:

Long story short - I'm using my same models, but playing skaven!

In sweden we have a saying that goes: "Skräddaren säger nej, bestämt NEJ!" and thats all i got to say...

oh, sure, blame the warband.
you only have the strongest horror in the game- plus the ability to raise the corpses of any hero you murder via the necromancer(undead possessed with black blood? yes sir), a potentially infinite supply of shambling dead already, fast-attack wolves that get 4/4 offense stats and two attacks on a charge, and a henchman unit that ALWAYS has two attacks.

you don't have the wrong warband- you have the wrong tactics. my guess is that in addition to bad rolls (nothing to help those) you got slicked by the slings and arrows of other warbands, who outshoot you by miles every time.

here's what you do. make use of call of vanhel to put a zombie out in front of the line. he's closest, so even if you have an unprotected necromancer tying his shoe an inch behind- archers have to shoot at the zombie. it won't last LONG, but hey- you have PLENTY of zombies to keep in front of your other targets.

also- engage archers with wolves- the wolf may not get the kill, but he'll PROBABLY get the kill, and even if he doesn't, he can hit archers fast enough to keep them busy in the shooting phase.

now that you've effectively countered ranged assailants (also helps to deck your vampire out with light armor/shield/dodge combos that help him absorb bullets,) it's time to use him like the hulked-up molestation machine he is. make use of speed skills to gain access to buildings that may be used as cover and enter into combat early- a sword in each hand gives him four attacks by default, plus you can use combat-master to make sure you never really have a disadvantage in combat.

meanwhile, back with those slowpokes you call an army- well-armed and experienced dregs can become healthy and hardy warriors that work in tandem with your mix of ghouls and zombies (try four ghouls, three zombies for a basically ideal combo) to make a close-quarters meat grinder. (warning, may not take on possessed or sisters- use undead heroes or wolf/vampire intervention to deal with these close-quarters forces)

most warbands will break and run long before they manage to do you any REAL harm- though a friend did manage to kill (kill-kill, not take out of action) my entire force of wolves on my first game, which left my undead army basically out somewhere like 250GC. it took me something like a shit-ton of games to get back up to 15 units.

The undead have always served me well

dregs are cheap money earners till you get some super ghouls though they can level up nicely (ah Boris with your ws1 bucket load of attacks stupidity and scars I do miss you so)

and of course UBER ZOMBIES !!!!!!!

I recommend Mordheimer's website, which has a great article on Undead Tactics:

http://www.mordheimer.com/tactics/t_undead.htm

He recommends you go with one of the following "molds" for your warband:
~Fast Movers (lots of dire wolves, joined with your M6 vampire)
~Ghoul Band (no undead, just dregs & ghouls)
~Shambling Horde - (LOTS of zombies, max armor on your heroes)

I'm leading my group in a Sylvania campaign- one of our special rules for the setting is that Zombies only count as 1/2 a model for route tests... MAN, is that a good use of 15gc. (Had to retire my band, though... my Vampire, with S7 & T5, got killed... and resurrected as a zombie by an opposing Liche warband. YIKES! I know I can buy another Vampire, but he was the only good thing going with the band, really.)

The Undead from the Core book is good early on, but as more and more heroes become imune to Fear the warbands weaknesses catch-up.

Also a lot of the good shooty warbands like Elves and Reiklanders can usually tear apart a shambuling horde before it reaches them.

That being said The Vampire, and the dire wolves make a good strike team that can hit hard and fast in melee. The warband's strength is a mix of fear, cheap Zombies, cheap dregs, and the best single character in the game.

After playing the warband for a bit, it seems that you get a lot of options early on (Not as many as the mercenaries, mind you, but still quite a bit.), and you got to play what works initially, and keep it evolving as your heroes develop. I mean, I've had fair luck, and I started with a zombie horde, a necromancer, three dregs, and a sword-and-shield vampire wearing heavy armor.

The zombies worked initially, just bogging people down, and they were cheap enough that I didn't care if they died, and I played my vampire conservatively, sort of lashing out for easy XP where I saw it. And then my necromancer picked up "spell of doom." Its amazing for the groups I normally fight (Multi-wound ogres, beastmen, and carnival of chaos.). So when he levels, I try to make that spell more easily-casted. And one of my dregs randomly has 5 WS, while another has 4 S, so I'm trying to even them out. (Easily done with the 5 WS guy...not so much with the other guy.) My vampire randomly got 4 A, and a skill, so Strongman and a two-handed weapon was natural.

I'm just saying that you have enough options to make one of many different types of warbands. So you should make something you're ok with, and as your heroes evolve, so too should your strategy evolve.

A rule that turned up in Relics of the Crusade that we now use as standard in my circle is that casters get to pick their first spell and then roll the spells after that.

Starting with either Life Stealer or Spell of Doom (and a bow) means your necro will be getting xp and therefore getting the level-ups needed to thrive. Getting a few 'Lesser' magic blast spells helps a lot too.

Alternatly try the Walking Dead warband from BTB.
I like it, you get zombies ( yea!! ) skellys with weapons and wights for the LGT.
I've only played to games with them but they had a lot of flavour.

Mordoten wrote:

ebon_tower wrote:

Long story short - I'm using my same models, but playing skaven!

In sweden we have a saying that goes: "Skräddaren säger nej, bestämt NEJ!" and thats all i got to say...

Did you make that up? I've never heard that...

And OT: If you take 2o zombies it doesn't matter how slow or terrible they are, would it?

Theo

As for Undead. I think they have great strengths, ESPECIALLY against Skaven. The entire team besides 4 guys cause fear against a Max 7 Ld. As always in Mordheim, there is a lot of luck involved with the level ups with your Dregs.
In my opinion, use Zombies as little as possilbe. Replace them with Ghouls and Dire Wolves instead. (Wolves only in the begining). This makes your team FAST rather than slow. 18" charge is great. You obviously need the ghouls to gain some hench exp though. The 10 or so times I've seen Undead in our campaigns, they've always been among the top warbands.

Theorox wrote:

Did you make that up? I've never heard that...

Well I guess he didn't. But I'm not sure I'd call it a saying. It's from Varan-TV (the swedish comic group popular in the 90s).