Sartosa

Swabbies: Hmm. Well, I wish I knew the answer to that. That was another of Tom Hickelbury's rules that I merely copied. I'll try to find a Rules Review that addresses it. If I can't, I'll give you an answer. I know they definitely count towards selling and max warband size (it's the route check stuff I'm uncertain of.)

Press Gang: No, you do not get +1 exp for taking out a drunk, only to have them die. You hit them too hard, and for your carelessness, the drunk is now useless and, well, dead. (In the case of the Undead, I guess he's SPLATTERED.) The player gets +1 experience for taking an enemy out of action, OR recruiting a drunk (be it the easy way, finding him stone drunk, or fighting him and having him survive.)

Hope that clarifies. Although, I'm thinking of revising it: All Drunks taken out of action by normal means survive. However, if the attacker rolled a Critical Hit, wounded, and took the drunk out of action, the drunk immediately dies, and the hero does NOT get an experience point. You may choose, after rolling a crit, whether or not to use the skills 'Strike to Injure' or 'Web of Steel'.

Tactician/Hunch: Our group does play with them, yes. Although, I can't imagine off the top of my head any objective in Sartosa that would broken this way (most of them are weighted, like crates or cargo). Also, unless the warband had more than three members with Sprint, I don't imagine it being any more broken in objective scenarios than 'Hunch'. Besides, it takes far more resources.

Hunch- one skill
Tactician (one skill) + Sprint (three+ skills) + flag (-1 hand + 32gc) = four skills + 32 gold.

For non-shooting warbands like the Norse and Slayer Pirates, it's practically essential.


By the way, of late I've been distracted by the whole Athel Loren campaign, but this week, I'll try to finish out the Sartosa Revision PDF (mostly based on questions from this thread.) Any other questions/concerns/additional material you have before I put it all together?

Swabbies--ok.

Press Gang. Having played it twice now, I am inclined to agree with your ideas for changing it. I know its just a little thing but keeping track of possible experience earned on top of actual experience earned is not an easy concept for players to grasp.

Tactician, ex-cetera. Well even with cargo as objectives a DE/Skaven/HE with Tactician and a Friendly Flag can set up 18" in to the table and move 10". So a ground level objective is theirs at the end of their first move if its within 28" of their table edge.

Your response implied that only one model could benefit from all of the possible benefits but that's not how the items or skills read. Only one model need have Tactician and another be carrying a flag and then a couple of other warriors with Sprint and Zoom! In your face! A Skaven/Elf with sprint is 33" into the table. Shot him first.

In our last Press Gang game the Dark Elves with a Friendly Flag got 4 drunks in the first turn. They only got one more because they didn't want to fight, but it was enough to win the game by the end of turn 2 even if it took the rest of us 2 more turns to get all the remaining drunks.

Something to think about.

Press Gang: well, the easy solution (to the OLD way) of book-keeping was to roll immediately for the drunk to live or die as soon as he's taken out of action. (In the old way), on a roll of 3+, he lived and your hero got +1 experience. and you get a swabbie (to keep or sell). On a 1 or 2, the drunk died and no exp given.

Friendly Flag: Well, a few small things...
1. I did a poor job of clarifying 'who can take what flag', which I'll try to remedy in the switch. For the record, DE and Skaven can take a friendly flag, HE's cannot. One third of the problem solved, two thirds to go.
2. If you're playing mulitplayer, I THINK Tactician only lets you go 10" in, not 12". (It's +4", I think. Could be wrong).
3. The other option is to not let it stack. Friendly flag could read "the Leader counts as having Tactician, even if he is not bearing the flag." I'll consider that for the revision.

Also, note: "The game ends when all but one of the warbands fail their Rout tests, then the last remaining warband wins. Fail that, it ends when all of the Drunks and Drunks have been removed the board; the player with the highest number of Living Drunks (see below) wins."

Meaning, it's still a rout level scenario. (I'll have to remove the 'until all of the drunks have been removed"... that's just confusing, and I apologize.) If the game ends for any reason before all of the warbands rout, the player who took the most drunks alive wins. (For example: my local gaming store closes at 9, we often have to end the game before all of the players rout. In this case, the player who took the most alive breaks the stalemate.)

Press Gang--Yes that would have been wise. Sadly we are not wise...

Oh, that's how it was supposed to play! Big changes are coming in our bar district. Yeah we didn't get that at all. For example the High Elf and I discussed avoiding the last drunk to fight the DE but then decided it was too late at night. The store we play at also closes at 9 on our game night.

Tactician--Well now that I look at it, it doesn't say you may use it in multi-player games directly and only gives the example of 12" instead of 8". I think that is why we stopped using it. I think one player insisted he got to set up 12" in no mater what and we just stopped using it period.

What's this? A Mordheim setting just for pirates?!?!

AAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!

Got all the Sartosa PDFs quicker than you could skewer a swabbie!

After the Mordheim campaign we're just starting, we'll just have to get down to some REAL cutthroating and skullduggery!

Hmmm... wonder if there's any way to combine this with some Man O' War stuff (my other favorite GW game).

Thanks, Styrofoamking - great suff! Just when I thought I could focus on just one game/setting for a while...

Well, one of the early writers on the project (who used to be part of my local gaming group, till he had to move), came up with Mord/Man o War rules on his own, years before Master and I came up with the Sartosa Setting. We actually used bits of his 'Man o War' fiction for some of the 'fluff' stories, in the corners of the pages.

http://www.geocities.com/dagwklub/fools/index.html

make sure you check back at the site before starting the Sartosa campaign up, in case I post a 'rules' errata'. Cheers!

And now a statement and a question about Ghost Pirates.

I'm re-writing a rule for for you for the Ghost Pirates unless you have some serious objection:
"You may include a single Sea Singer in your warband, which replaces a Screaming Ghost or a Skeleton Mate."..UNLESS YOUR CAPTAIN IS DEAD, THEN NO PROBLEMO.
(Mine died tonight)

On the Sea Singer subject:
The last spell -Hymn of Rebirth- when do you roll for this???
My guess is in the post game sequence IF your Sea Singer did not get taken out of action.
It would be cool to do it as soon as an enemy hero is taken OOA. Roll right then and if he dies, and if you cast your spell, he stands back up and fights for the Ghosts. Although you would need to add a spell efective distance for this.

More Friendly Flag angst. Most of the time I don't mind this type of item. This campaign cycle is wearing my patience.

So as written the Friendly flag allows the warband to move a further "6 inches in"after set up but before play begins. So tonight in a chance encounter the player with the friendly flag closes 6 inches more and then charges his opponent after he rolls for moving first. Was this an intended use of the item?

Really want to see this one changed...

Playtable: I'm not sure. There's nothing saying you can't hire another Captain, to be honest.
Hymn of Rebirth is in the post game phase. While some players roll immediately after a hero dies (and for the aforementioned drunks, it's recommended), technically speaking, injuries don't actually take effect until the post game phase.

Von Kurt: I am quite honestly sad to hear it's bothering you. I have no intention but to help people have fun, rather than the opposite.

The intended use of the item was to help warbands like the Norse, Ghost Pirates and the Slayer Pirates, who have little to no missile support (and in the latter two warbands cases, very slow too), actually PARTICIPATE in the battle, rather than march for 5 turns without even seeing battle.

So, here are three possible nerfs, to be impleted your next game:
1. Gives the Leader Tactician, even if he's not the one holding it.
2. Restricted to Norse, Ghost Pirates, & Slayer Pirates.
3. May let the hero set up an extra 6" in, but ONLY if the starting zone is the edge of the board. This has no effect on Infiltrating, Hunched, or Catacombed models, and may not let a warrior set up within 16" of a defending model, nor within 16" of a scenario objective.

Please, tell me what you think, as I have not seen it being broken as you have.

The Ghost Pirates are slow? Really? They have heroes with speed skills and shooting skills...Their basic henchmen can have crossbows! The slow elements of the warband are throw aways anyway. Cursed crew are much more useful in every way.

Ach, dude...

The Friendly Flag--I don't think it needs to be restricted. I do think it needs clarification. Thanks for the above choices.

Well, the Cursed are pretty good (and the ghosts can be really fast,) but if you want any Skeletons Mates, Gibbets, or Bloated to have any chance of catching up, you need to give them a boast (I found that hunching your Mate-sniper with a gibbet/bloated screen is really handy. Watching a skaven warband nearly fail every fear check to charge is hilarious, mwah ha ha.)

Ah, I totally missed that Skeleton Mates can't run. Never seems to be a problem for Playtable as they have shooting skills and therefore are support.

I think the operative word is "if". Aside from "Bloated" being free the actual value to a warband of the slow elements is really low. Essentially it is a pirate warband with Undead leaders. While the name of the warband suggests that you would be using the undead henchmen, the rules disparity between the living and undead makes the undead into fluff tokens. (See Playtable's many complaints about no one failing a fear test.)

The Hunch tactic would be feasible if you re-wrote the rules for Hunch. (So that "Bloated" could be used as the screen. "Gibbets" will work.)

I really don't care, but if you want a Leader to be replaceable you must write a rule that enables this, since all warbands with the option to replace their leader have a special rule.

The Undead Pirate warband I wrote up a long time ago, based on Davy Jones was rehireable. Most Undead warband have a leader that keeps the undead creatures "bound" together.

It should follow normal "undead" rules for such things.

My mistake, I used to remember that skeleton mates can't run but the last few games I'd forgotten that.
But yes, the Ghost Captain, Sreaming Ghosts (Cabin boys) and the Sea Singer can all run and get sprint etc.
The Cursed can run and take crossbows.
The Bloated are too slow, and rare to come by by me, and are pretty much worthless.
The Gibbets would be great with the heavy armor except that this is Sartosa and most everyone has S4, -2 save pistols! Which gives them no save.
Oh, plus they are slow too. This makes the cost unjustifiable for me. Although I try to put some in now and then just for the flavor of the warband.
A The Gibbet with a cutlass is 50 gc.
A The Cursed with a crossbow is 50 gc.
The The Cursed is a better buy in my eyes.

Hunch: Shoot, never noticed that they couldn't be hunched, do to 'no experience'. That would included Gibbets, which cannot gain exp either. I'll throw in a rule that overlooks it. 'Captain's Cunning' or something.

Undead Leader: My fault once more. Consider it changed to suit the normal Undead leaders rule.

Bloated & Gibbets: Bloated are rare, although you do stumble across them (swabbie exploration result, Press Gang scenario.) The most sure fire way to find them, if you want to, is the 'Master Pressganger' skill.

The Gibbets are not great, to be fair, when compared to the cursed. I definitely had several experienced Cursed in my ghost band before I bought my first Gibbet. This is where I found them useful:

1. Fear: I don't know about playtable, but to me, a fear causing swabbie is about twice as useful as a non-fear causing swabbie. Animals, skaven, and beastmen are pretty much at a loss to do anything about them, letting them be a huge monkey wrench/distraction to any opponent. A hunched skeleton mate and two gibbets held an entire skaven warband up for three turns once. For gibbets, the 'no pain' makes taking them out of action an even longer project. Sure, they eventually got taken out, which leads us to advantage #2...

2. Lover's lament: If you roll this spell, you definitely want some gibbets or bloated on your side. Hunch them out, and if one gets them taken out, whammo, resurrect it during your next turn. By that point, the sea singer is a good distance into the board, and your shambling undead will find it much easier to rejoin the fray than if they had been walking from the deployment zone. Resurrecting gibbets isn't a sure thing, but Swabbies are quite easy to recall. Either way, that's something a Cursed CAN'T do.

As far as the armor, if your group uses any bonuses/experimental rules for heavy armor, they also apply to the gibbets. For example, our group has the Armor Modifier from strength begin at S5 rather than S4. Not much of a difference, but enough. It also gives an added bonus against dagger users, raising the gibbet's save to a healthy 4+.

Either way, I can see what you mean about the Cursed having a strong effect on the way they play. From my little experience with them, though, they started out very human (humans and speedy ghosts, charging into the fray), but the more I played, the more 'undead' flavor crept in. When Screaming Ghosts died, Skeleton Mate snipers took their place. Gibbets and Bloated, boosted by sea singer spells, become more prominant. It's almost a hybrid, to me: one foot in the grave and one out of it.

LOL. I think we are talking about 2 different games we both happen to call Mordheim.

You need to include a supplement of recommended rules to be used for maximum enjoyment.

Heh. Well, as far as the Hunch, that was purely a mistake on my part, rather than a change in rules. (However, I did realize that the 'cannot learn experience' rule has a few downsides with swabbies anyway, beyond the obvious... for example, they can't use improvised weapons in 'Last Orders', which seems silly, so a similar issue was going to be addressed anyway.)

As far as the armor modification, any armor mod is fine really. I know ours is not the only group to suggest changes to the armor system, and while not required, it would definitely help out any player with gibbets.

Oh, I always meant to ask you, but keep forgeting: in the 'Ghost Wreck' scenario, you grant +1 Exp for sinking/capturing an enemy boat. IHow did you handle 'sinking' boats, and what did you always consider a 'captured' boat? I don't think I ever addressed the rule myself, and if you had a precedence, no sense changing it without cause.

Sinking or capturing an enemy boat--I wrote the scenario for our Lustria campaign which had lots of river/swamp scenarios. We used the TC #24 rules for boats with some General's Compendium add ons like lots of rowers and burst of speed. The scenarios were intended to be duels between flotillas of rowboats with skinks, Kroxigors and crocodiles for flavor. (Crocodiles sink a lot of boats.)

Using the TC rules it is possible to sink a rowboat with missile fire or by ramming it, so the warrior with the highest leadership on a boat would get the experience for the sinking of an enemy craft. I ignore the fact that a group of shooters on an island could sink a boat as well...

Capturing an enemy boat was also possible if your warrior sent the last enemy crew OOA or came across an abandoned but still floating boat that the enemy had left unguarded on a shore.

I've amended the rules for Ship to Ship fights, where they make more sense. Now that our group has moved up in scale the rowboat fights are not as dramatic. Feel free to cut the experience bonus if you want to.

Gotcha. We just had our last game of the second Sartosa campaign tonight, and some rowboat questions did arise. My default answer was 'look at the EiF rules', when it came to the heavy stuff. Not too much rowboat to rowboat, but we had our nuln player sink a heavy occupied rowboat by shooting at it repeatedly (we haven't been randomizing hits, like stagecoaches.)

I think a 'ramming' game, whether a scenario or just a fun set-up game, would be kind of neat.

Oh, and we didn't have any crocs this campaign, but we added a 'Slippery-Pete'-inspired Bloodwyrm, which has the same stats as a Possessed, with +1 Wound and 'Aquatic'. Every time a boat moves through the water, roll 1D6: on a 1, it pops out, ambushes a random model on the boat, and continues to fight the model or the closest model until the monster is dead. If killed, a 'brother' bloodwyrm will appear the next time a 1 is rolled, for whichever model rolls it. Tough for starting warbands, but for an end-of-the-campaign game, a nice minor-threat.

Last game, eh? How long a cycle do you run? We try to do 3 months or when one warband is unbearable.

What kind of boat questions came up? We tend to be fairly lax with our rules. A scenario that has ramming as its focus needs to not use Ahoy! rules. Ahoy! has an annoying take a Ld test to avoid the ram rule which means that ramming as a tactic is a waste of time when using smaller ships or boats. (Unless you are playing against Skaven...)

I like the random hit table in the TC #24 boat rules. Ahoy rules refer to a random hit location table but I can't find it on their site. In our current fights shooty warbands rule the seas and close combat warbands (or less accomplished shooters) are just experience point sinks for the shooters.

The monster sounds good. We are currently using the Slippery Jack version from the most recent Vercuso Campaign by Flame On. Unfortunately Jack hasn't reappeared since opening night.

Ah. Well, we've run it for, oh, over 6 months now. But we only average 2-3 three hour sessions each month, though, and we love our multiplayer, so the groups don't develop too quick. For the last game, the consistant players were at ratings equal to 500, 400, and myself (who restarted halfway through,) at about 200.

Shooty Warbands: I hear ya, brother. For that reason, Nuln is now taken OFF the recommended warband list from now on... the Nuln player dominated, and that's WITH certain weapons (like the mortar) nerfed or banned. With tall towers, defenseless boats, and large bodies of water, it's just too strong.

Slippery Jack: Well, in the 'additional material' pdf, I'm definitely sticking the 'Slippery Jack' variant of 'the pool'' in... it's too good not to.

Speaking of which, I'm putting your campaign's 'locales' in, if that's okay.

Locales: that would be great! Thanks for asking. Tonight saw the first captures of locations and next week could see more (but only if I am lucky so chances are not too great!)

I'd say we play about the same number of games, although we only play multi-player when we have an odd number of players or on a special event night. (I think its been years since I ran a special event that wasn't a final game.)

Question from tonight's games--5555--The Fruitful Isle. "Gain 1D3 Cargo. You may also gain 1D3 Parrots." The wording implies that you may also not gain. Is there an "if" to this entry?

StyrofoamKing wrote:

Slippery Jack: Well, in the 'additional material' pdf, I'm definitely sticking the 'Slippery Jack' variant of 'the pool'' in... it's too good not to.

Thank'ee mate, thank'ee!

Fruitful Isle: None, really. The original line was 'you may gain 1D3 Parrots or 1 Trained Monkey', but then I took out the Monkey out of this printing. If you have the rules for the monkey (on this thread), feel free to stick it back in. Eek eek.

Warboss: Anytime, matey.

Thanks for the clarification on the Fruitful Isle.

Back to flags. We really have only one player using a flag (the player with the least Mordheim experience) and the rest of us only used them in the Final Battle of the last campaign so I haven't paid them much mind. However this week someone finally shot the bearer of the Friendly Flag and we discovered that its been carried by a henchman for the last 3 weeks or so.

Although there is nothing condoning this in your rules the fact that Tim's Jolly Roger specifically states that the flag may only be carried by a hero while your quoted rules for banners in general and the rules given under each banner do not state this led him to assume that only the Jolly Roger had to be carried by a hero.