Few various questions

Hello everyone,
I just started with Mordheim about a week ago and have a few various question so far:

1. Re-rolls - do they stack? If the miniature has skills that allow it to re-roll any missed attacks under certain conditions (charging, for example), such as hatred and sword master, can all missed attacks be re-rolled twice or even trice (such is the case with my opponent's berserk, and he has 5 attacks while frenzied too) or re-rolls are limited to only 1 per attack?

2. Shooting the stunned and knocked down - the rules state that it is possible to shoot targets that are k.o. or stunned if you choose to. They also state that all attacks against such targets hit automatically. "All" part is pretty obvious, but just to confirm - you don't need to roll to hit, only to wound when shooting them? And as for stunned. Rules say they automatically taken out of combat if enemy can hit them in HtH attacks. What about ranged attacks? Are stunned treated the same way as k.o. ?

3. Can a large miniature hide? For example, a troll is behind 3" building. He is higher than building so can be shot by enemy even while behind, but it certainly gives him cover and therefore he is eligible to hide. So the question is - can he hide behind this building, as long as no enemy figures have LOS to him on the ground level or lose to him?

I'd be grateful for answers, preferably with references to rules . I tried searching for answers on this forums first, but couldn't find any. Sorry if those questions did not deserve a separate tread.

1. A general rule of thumb is that you can never re-roll a re-roll. I would therefore say that it is not possible to re-roll the same dice twice or more even with the different abilities all granting re-rolls.

2. Automatically hitting only applies to hand-to-hand combat. You must always roll to hit for shooting. Also, hand-to-hand combat allows you to automatically OOA models that are stunned. This is not the case for shooting and you need to always roll to hit and roll to injure for shooting. This ruling comes from the specific order and headings where those rules are written within the rulebook. It is a common mistake that shooting follows the same rules as hand-to-hand combat for enemy models that are knocked down or stunned (I played this wrong for many years).

3. Yes, large models can hide.

Edited to add... Welcome Mechanique!!!

I have an additional question, if there is a standing model near the knocked down/stunned model, must the shooter try to shoot the standing model, or is the choice of either target good? In our club, we do not allow a knocked down/stunned model to be shot any additional times.

@Arli...

Page 13 of the Living Rulebook PDF (bold text added by me).

Quote :

You must shoot at the closest enemy, as he represents the most immediate threat and therefore the most obvious target. However, you may shoot at a more distant target if it is easier to hit or if closer models are stunned or knocked down (see diagram on next page). For example, a closer target may be hard to hit because it is in cover, whilst a more distant target might be in the open and therefore an easier shot.

If the standing model is closer than the KD / stunned model then you must shoot it. If they are equal distance or the KD / stunned model is closer than you may shoot at the KD / stunned model. Also, if the shooter is more than 2" higher and can pick its target then it can choose to shoot a KD / stunned model even if there is a standing model closer. However, because the model is KD / stunned you can also choose to ignore it if you feel that the warrior that is standing represents a greater threat.

Thanks

Thank you for your answers.

RationalLemming wrote:

This is not the case for shooting and you need to always roll to hit and roll to injure for shooting. This ruling comes from the specific order and headings where those rules are written within the rulebook. It is a common mistake that shooting follows the same rules as hand-to-hand combat for enemy models that are knocked down or stunned (I played this wrong for many years).

Unfortunately, could not find anything like this in the rulebook (I do not doubt you, but I still have to prove this point to my players). So, the part about attacking knocked down targets on pg.21 does not specify HtH attacks, unlike it does for stunned ("if an enemy can attack him in hand-to-hand combat"). It just says "All attacks against a warrior who is knocked down hit automatically." So doesn't that imply both HtH and ranged?

So, just to confirm, you are saying that stunned / k.o.'d targets are treated in exactly same way as standing for ranged attacks ? Or are they taken OOA if shot hits and wounds, without the need to make injury rolls?

Page 21 of the Rule book states for both "Warriors Knocked Down" & "Warriors Stunned" that this applies to hand to hand.
For Knocked Down:

Quote :

If an enemy is fighting a warrior who is knocked down, he may attack him to put him out of his misery.
All attacks against a warrior who is knocked down hit automatically. If any of the attacks wound the knocked down model and he fails his armour save, he is automatically taken out of action as explained previously. A knocked down model may not parry.

Bold added by me
This line specifies attacks and not "attacks and shooting" or even just shooting. This means h2h combat.

Quote :

A stunned warrior is at the mercy of his enemies. A stunned model is automatically taken out of action if an enemy can attack him in hand-to-hand combat.

Bold added by me
This I think also makes it clear (and more so then before) that this is ONLY in h2h combat.

hope that helps clear things up.

And welcome to the forum!

I agree that it is nice to have actual quotes from the Rulebook when disputes/discussions occur.

In addition to the information provided by Pervavita, it should also be noted that the sections on page 21 all are part of the 'chapter' for Close Combat that begins on page 18. These rules are not mentioned in the previous 'chapter' for Shooting.

Welcome to the forum.

Quote :

So, just to confirm, you are saying that stunned / k.o.'d targets are treated in exactly same way as standing for ranged attacks ?

Yes knocked down or stunned models must be hit, wounded and you must roll the type of injury.

Perhaps it would help to alieviate your confusion if you noted that the rules for 'shooting' are seperate from the rules for 'close combat'. The rules for shooting do indeed say that you may choose not to target knocked dwon or stunned models. The rules for close combat do indeed say all attacks hit automatically as quoted above.


Edit: Oops beaten to the send button by the Lemming.

I didn't talk about the two chapters (Shooting and close combat) as the Critical Hits are only covered in the shooting chapter... yes they do say they effect hand-to-hand but the point is that sections don't matter too much in the rule book as it isn't the best put together to make things clear.

hope that makes sense.

I am kinda confused by the reference to 'Critical Hits'.

The rulebook is often a mess, but this instance is not one of those times. With these rules chapters there is actually an organization of subjects.

Pervavita mentioned critical hits because it is only mentioned in the shooting 'chapter'. If 'chapter' was the sole reason for why auto hitting a knocked down / stunned warrior only applies to hand-to-hand combat then by that same logic critical hits would only apply to shooting. Therefore the reference to shooting 'chapter' as opposed to close combat 'chapter' is probably a faulty argument.

Edited to add... Thankfully P provided a separate argument for why the rules for shooting do not change based on whether the target is standing, knocked down or stunned.

Except that the rules for critical hits specifically say that they apply to both shooting and close combat. So to propse that they didn't apply to both phases you would have to ignore the actual wording.

I didn't offer the information about chapters to refute Pervatia's comments, I thought it would bolster them.

RationalLemming is right on why I didn't cover the chapter. I understand that the wording in the Critical Hit rules do say " effect hand-to-hand" but still they are just in the one chapter and as such though valid as a rule, stating that "it's in this chapter" can cause confusion as it leads to people only looking in the right chapter (as logic would have it) and saying that rules from other chapters don't apply.
What I mean is if your argument is simply "It's in this chapter" is flawed in that so many of the rules are not put together the best and some times you have to hunt for the rules you want and they are not always in the right chapter (such as the Critical hit table).
Thus I my reason for my statement.

By no means am I saying your wrong as your not; simply stating "why" I didn't refrence chapter and why it's a flawed argument (that should not be flawed if the book was writen right) to only refrence chapter.