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 Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!

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shotguncoffee
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PostSubject: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 15:15

I belive it was once suggested on this forum that to avoid the rules nightmare of pisols in h2h, all pistols should work like crossbow pistol.

now some people are contemplating a similar solution. of course there are some differences between mordheim and coreheim, i.e. in mordheim you need pistolier to shoot two pistols, in coreheim that ability is just a facet of the quick shot skill. but all in all i think this is an interesting route to take, even though i think the idea as presented here needs more fine tuning:

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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 18:33

Honestly this seems like it'll make pistols a lot weaker. Can't use them when you charge, you lose any extra attacks you have when you do use them, you have to use BS and suffer two -1 to hit penalties that were never there, and if you do KD or stun them you can't coup de grace. Plus you don't get that sweet cinematic feeling when you parry somebody's gun/bullet/however you imagine it.

Half the time people will be charging from outside of pistol range; I assume range is just ignored completely for Stand and Shoot, as the model waits until the target is close enough along their charge to fire. You may wish to clarify that.

So basically the Stand and Shoot attacks get resolved after chargers are moved (to avoid confusing business like failed charges), and have Super Strike Firstest priority, right?

I honestly don't think the rules for pistols in CC are that confusing as is anyway. And once your model has 4S it's really only useful against armor anyway, it's not like it needs to be any weaker.

I guess there's some vagueness about switching to other weapons afterwards. If a model with a sword and a brace of pistols only has 1A and uses two pistol attacks and no sword attacks, can they still parry that round? What if had have 2A, so two pistol attacks and a sword attack, do they parry now? Ok, well that's parry's fault for being a stupid rule not the pistol's rule's fault, because other weapons pretty straightforwardly only apply their bonus to attacks actually made with the weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 18:42

yes that is a firm start for a critique. i dont think this suggestion is perfect either. but its still a lot simpler than the current one.

regarding -1 to hit, well many groups play what dual wielding = -1 to hit so that's that. if you don't play this, then don't apply the -1 to hit

still, mordheims crossbow pistol does just about what it says above (with -2 bs) and that can be a killer weapon
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 19:43

Last time I read the coreheim rules pistols were exempt from the -1 to hit penalty for dual wielding.

The Crossbow Pstol lets you fight as normal in the following round of CC though. It's essentially an extra attack at the start of a fight (or two with a brace? I forget if this is allowed), so it's actually really good for people with decent BS. It's kind of a mystery how range and cover modifiers play out in the default rules for Crossbow Pistols though.

I think you ought to consider adding a skill that lets users with a Short Bow do Stand and Shoot attacks, to give them some use. I've definitely toyed with a Stand and Shoot special skill for my Wood Elf warband. I know Coreheimians hate Elf warbands (and I kind of do too, frankly) but it seems super appropriate for them.

Why not let models who Stand and Shoot fight as normal in CC? If that seems too powerful you make a brace of pistols count as two ranged weapon choices then people will actually have to make a choice about their equipment, instead of just taking pistols if they can afford them every time for the extra attacks. I may not be up to date on Coreheim's rules so if this doesn't make sense I apologize.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 19:56

i dont hate elves at all its just the original dudes really
i do think they need to be balanced somehow, though, and while i have an idea how to do it, that would be kind of a thread highjack from myself Wink
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:18

What about just giving all pistols the fight-in-close-combat rule *and* the stand-and-shoot rule? Then high WS users can use pistols for gun fu in CC and high BS users can use them to stand and shoot. Just make it that you can only do one or the other.

Of curiosity, what is the rules nightmare of allowing pistols in close combat? Are some finding it too powerful or something?
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:31

Honestly what I think would be cool is letting a model with pistols sacrifice an attack at anytime in CC and substitute it for a single pistol attack that round, once per combat per pistol they had. Follows the all normal rules for attacking in CC. This way you could save your pistol shot until your opponent is knocked down and shoot them for a guaranteed hit with 4 strength and the total -3 AS (KD models get their armor save, right?). That's pretty badass, maybe it should require the pistolier skill.

And really the way I worded it at the top makes for a pretty simple rule in my mind, and you could easy amend it to "only in the first round of combat" and then you have the PIstols RAW essentially. Again, parry from also having a sword dickies the whole thing but Coreheim doesn't do normal parry anyway!


Ideally you could have the choice of either Stand and Shoot style, which would use BS, or RAW style, which would use WS, depending on which benefited you most. Too complicated, but cool!

Now my head is full of rules for Gunswords; and I don't even like Gunswords!
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:32

YEeearrrfgh delete meeee


Last edited by hero on Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:35; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:33

Lord 0 wrote:

Of curiosity, what is the rules nightmare of allowing pistols in close combat? Are some finding it too powerful or something?

Hadn't you heard?

Love the tabloid thread title. I feel threatened and cheated by the pistols rules now. I may lose sleep. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 20:38

Maybe it's something specific to Coreheim. In RAW I only see the parry issue and I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist in Coreheim so... I can only imagine.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 21:42

I've never seen any problem with Pistols in Melee. If you start getting a lot of attacks you simply pass one pistol off to a buddy.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 21:58

I was always under the assumption that if you had more than 1A in your profile you'd still get the left over attacks, which would count as using whatever weapons you were switching to after using the pistols
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 23:23

In a Q&A interview with one of the authors (Tuomas Pirinen), he mentioned a couple of house rules he liked to play with that are relevant to the pistols in melee issue. First, after you shoot a pistol in melee, in subsequent rounds you use the pistol as a club. Second, you can switch weapons (or a weapon and a shield) during a melee, but whatever you are switching from is dropped and you can't pick it up again until after the melee.

We use both, except we decided that when clubbing with your pistol you don't benefit from the increased chance of Stunning your opponent.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sat 6 Aug 2011 - 1:31

mweaver wrote:
First, after you shoot a pistol in melee, in subsequent rounds you use the pistol as a club.
That's what we do to (as it's very fluffy), but it hasn't come up that often.

I don't think we've ever thought it was a "nightmare".
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sat 6 Aug 2011 - 7:57

It has never given us grief, either.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sat 6 Aug 2011 - 15:21

We've never had a problem with pistols either. I do agree that it is odd that pistols and crossbow pistols have different rules for shooting into close combat. We allow swapping of pistols to other weapons after first round of combat.

Probably the only nightmare that pistols in close combat have given us is in relation to our own house rule for -1 to hit with off-hand attack and if it applies to the pistol if used in off-hand. Haven't resolved that one yet! Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sun 7 Aug 2011 - 13:35

I like the idea of stand and shoot. It's closer to WHFB rules, and simplifies the the combat issue.

The problem with changing the rules around for pistols is that pistol crossbows need to be taken into account as well.

The pistol crossbow is not a logically designed item. The book suggests that the pistol crossbow has the same power as a regular crossbow (str 4) in a smaller design.

That's a a little ridiculous on it's own, but then they say that the crossbow is move or fire, but the pistol crossbow is not. But there's now way you'd be able to cock a super heavy mini crossbow without a windlass (it's too small to use a footstrap). So logically the mini crossbow should be move or fire as well, if it's going to have the same power.

Of course using a windlass for a pistol crossbow is a little ridiculous.

It's more logical to say that the pistol crossbow is substantially weaker than the full sized crossbow. If you look at real world pistol crossbows, str 2 would be more realistic, especially for something that could be hand cocked, instead of machine cocked.

The problem then is what is this wimpy little pistol crossbow good for? It's adequate for small game, but isn't a serious combat weapon, unless you poison it. In that case, it could be quite useful against lightly armored enemies.

But in most cases, you'd be better off poisoning bows or crossbows, instead of pistol crossbows. They're got much more range. This is even more important if you've got realsitic str 2 pistol crossbows, because the bows and big crossbows will have better range and power.

Honestly, the only realistic use for the pistol crossbow is stealth. It's much smaller than a regular crossbow or bow, and can be hidden under a cloak, and it's much quieter than a pistol.

The problem is that Mordheim doesn't really have any situations where the stealthiness of the pistol crossbow is useful. From a realistic standpoint, the pistol crossbow is completely worthless in the Mordheim ruleset.

And then there's the fact that the pistol crossbow is a Witch Hunter weapon. Why? Why would the witch hunters have an exclusive pipeline to an assassin's weapon? It seems to me that this would be a skaven weapon, since they are the ninjas of Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sun 7 Aug 2011 - 13:41

actually, even before i starting modding the rules our found out about other mods, i always just thought that CBP was so lame and just gave witch hunters access to duelling pistols instead because if theres anything thats not logical it is that you know how to use a pistol but once a duelling pistol is put in your hand you just stand there and shrug

edit: also there is no model support for CBP
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sun 7 Aug 2011 - 13:48

edit: also there is no model support for CBP

Well that's not entirely true...

There's a pistol crossbow on the Mordheim equipment sprue. albino
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sun 7 Aug 2011 - 13:52

oh yes and de corsair handbows
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Mon 8 Aug 2011 - 6:12

You get them from the Dark-elf plastics. Pretty much anyone that plays darkelves has lots left over - they are not too hard to get. Well, not if you have access to a gaming club or the internet anyway Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Thu 11 Aug 2011 - 17:34

what would people think of allowing pistols to fire at the end of a running move and then give them NO close combat capabilities what so ever?

they would probably need reduced range to avoid kiting though.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 14:36

I'm considering this:

In close combat, a pistol counts as a club, and may be used as a second hand weapon if the player wishes. I'm not going to give the strength 4, -2 Armor save as standard. It's always a club in combat, and does not confer str 4, -1 armor, as normal.

(The club is also a weaker weapon in my ruleset than the mace or hammer.)

A warrior with a pistol may stand and shoot a charging enemy, with -1 to hit. A warrior with a brace of pistols may fire twice, if he wishes.

Reloading: Once shot, a pistol must be reloaded before it can be shot again. Use a counter to represent a loaded weapon. When you shoot, take on counter away for each shot fired.

A warrior who moves no further than his movement rate can reload one pistol. If he does not move at all, he may reload 2 pistols. Add an appropriate number of counters to represent the loaded shots. A warrior who runs, climbs, or is in close combat is too busy to reload.

It's a slightly better defensive weapon this way, but not excessively so.

Shooting is more tactical, as you have to factor in reloads. Fast-moving warriors will have to conserve thier pistol shots for important targets. Stationary and slow moving warriors may shoot more often.

The brace of pistols is very good on stand and shoot rolls, but less so during the shooting phase.

More importantly you never have to think "Did I shoot last turn or was it the turn before?" The shot counters give you an immediate representation of your weapon's status.

Obviously, the pistolier skill needs to be tweaked a bit to bring it in line, but this is the direction I'm leaning.


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PostSubject: Re: Pistols in Close Combat are a Rules Nightmare!   Today at 2:38

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