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 Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment

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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 4:24

Hi guys,

Sorry, I think that these questions have been posted a lot of time, but I didn't find a clear answer.

1 - Possessed may never wear armour and weapons, but can they use garlic, Mordheim map and rope & hook for example ?

2 - Does the tentacle mutation allow to use a weapon/buckler on the mutated arm for a mutant ?
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 5:04

1. yes they may as they arnt weapons or armour. I like to think of the rope as a tentacle that shoots out of him to assist in climbing Razz

2. This is an intresting one. Honestly, I would consider the tentacle a whole new growth instead of a replacement. Whilst the two main arms are hitting, this one is grabbing. RAW you can see below;

Crab Claw
One of the mutantís arms ends in a great, crab-like
claw. He may carry no weapons in this arm, but gains
an extra attack in hand-to-hand combat with a +1

Strength bonus.

Tentacle
One of the mutantís arms ends in a tentacle. He may
grapple his opponent in close combat to reduce his
attacks by -1, down to a minimum of 1. The mutant

may decide which attack his opponent loses.

Notice the lack of "he may carry no weapons in this arm"
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 10:01

true, but (IMHO) on the other hand it does seem quite difficult to grapple his opponent and carry a weapon at the same time
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 10:07

Gobbo Freak wrote:
true, but (IMHO) on the other hand it does seem quite difficult to grapple his opponent and carry a weapon at the same time

+1 (I learn fast!)
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 11:40

(Sorry, I donít have the book in front of me.) The arm ending in a Tentacle still can not use weapons or carry armor. The Tentacle is been mutated, from an offensive natural weapon (i.e. sword, pistol, ect.) to a defensive ability. Now instead of causing a wound, it now removes the opponents attack by 1.



The Mutations list is for both Mutants and Possessed. Even though a Mutation says it canít use weapons or armor in a particular mutation doesnít mean a Possessed can use a weapon or carry armor with the other hand. Possessed can not use Weapons or Armor.



Since Mutants can Weapons and Armor, the Mutation says that Weapons and/or can be used in the other hand. Granted Iím sure that doesnít mean if the other hand is also Mutated and can not use weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 12:43

me and my friends actually house ruled that you can hold and use a weapon or shield in a tentacle arm, but if you choose to use it's ability you must forfit the attack or armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 12:53

By the RAW, I'd say that you could still use a weapon or shield in that hand - and you could justify it by saying the mutant grabs his opponent in a loop of the tentacle then beats/blocks them with the weapon/shield being held by the end of the tentacle.

However, I'm inclined to lean towards the house rule posted by AFKZombie to keep within the "spirit" of the rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 23 Nov 2009 - 15:39

Shadowphx wrote:
(Sorry, I donít have the book in front of me.) The arm ending in a Tentacle still can not use weapons or carry armor. The Tentacle is been mutated, from an offensive natural weapon (i.e. sword, pistol, ect.) to a defensive ability. Now instead of causing a wound, it now removes the opponents attack by 1.



The Mutations list is for both Mutants and Possessed. Even though a Mutation says it canít use weapons or armor in a particular mutation doesnít mean a Possessed can use a weapon or carry armor with the other hand. Possessed can not use Weapons or Armor.



Since Mutants can Weapons and Armor, the Mutation says that Weapons and/or can be used in the other hand. Granted Iím sure that doesnít mean if the other hand is also Mutated and can not use weapons.

I think he realises that possessed cannot use a weapon in it or weapons at all regardless. the fact that one mutation clearly says "no weapons may be used in this hand" for one of the mutations, but not for the tentacle, gives grounds for believe that its perfectly fine to weild a weapon with a tentacle.
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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 5:55

mrbretonnia wrote:
1. yes they may as they arnt weapons or armour. I like to think of the rope as a tentacle that shoots out of him to assist in climbing

2. This is an intresting one. Honestly, I would consider the tentacle a whole new growth instead of a replacement. Whilst the two main arms are hitting, this one is grabbing. RAW you can see below;

Ahah, one more time we found something "strange" in the rules

For the 1., I'll say no, 'cause they can't carry something (technically), so I don't agree that a possessed can take his Mordheim map and know how to use it

2. We said he can, I agree, but houserule that he can't use on the same turn the attack and the minus 1 attack. He can use the tentacle to hit the ennemy, or use it to stop one of his attack... Now, I agree, the rules never say he can't
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Tue 24 Nov 2009 - 6:06

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:


Ahah, one more time we found something "strange" in the rules

For the 1., I'll say no, 'cause they can't carry something (technically), so I don't agree that a possessed can take his Mordheim map and know how to use it

2. We said he can, I agree, but houserule that he can't use on the same turn the attack and the minus 1 attack. He can use the tentacle to hit the ennemy, or use it to stop one of his attack... Now, I agree, the rules never say he can't

Logic wise I agree with you completely, but For all intents and purposes the rules are as I said them Wink. Personally I dislike possessed being able to use anything (besides perhaps a ring of garlic around his neck Razz), but I think your house rules should work. To be fair, consider 40gc for an extra attack, its fair for 35gcs to negate an attack. So personaly I will continue to allow the model to use a weapon/shield/make an attack and tentacle grab someone.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 16:16

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:
mrbretonnia wrote:
1. yes they may as they arnt weapons or armour. I like to think of the rope as a tentacle that shoots out of him to assist in climbing

2. This is an intresting one. Honestly, I would consider the tentacle a whole new growth instead of a replacement. Whilst the two main arms are hitting, this one is grabbing. RAW you can see below;

Ahah, one more time we found something "strange" in the rules

For the 1., I'll say no, 'cause they can't carry something (technically), so I don't agree that a possessed can take his Mordheim map and know how to use it

2. We said he can, I agree, but houserule that he can't use on the same turn the attack and the minus 1 attack. He can use the tentacle to hit the ennemy, or use it to stop one of his attack... Now, I agree, the rules never say he can't
See I don't agree. Just because a Possessed has had it's body mutated, and claimed by a Daemon, doesn't make them stupid by any means. Why would they not know how to use a rope? or use a Map? Being Possessed doesn't suddenly make someone a dumb ass. If anything it makes them more vicious and cunning as the Daemon gives them power.
Personally I think the equipment restrictions are because the body has been mutated out of shape into weird ways, so it can't find armour that fits properly. And they just prefer to use their daemonic mutations rather than weapons.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 23:15

I was thinking along the same lines as Someone. At first, I thought "Well, those Possessed, they are so feral and vile, they dont even know how to use a rope" but then I realised, "Hey, they are heroes? AND they can gain experience, andthinking about what the word experience really means, they learn. And therefore, tehy cant bea s stupid as they look! I guess you should never judge a dog by its hair" well, sorta like that, and not out loud.

BUT, if a possessed has a tentacle, why use ropes? Dang! I propose a change to the Tentacle mutation

"... a tentacle will also count as a permanently equipped rope, as long as the mutant doesn't hold a weapon or shield/buckler in it".
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 23:25

I took it that Possessed didn't use weapons because they tended to have big meaty claws, pincers, tentacles, spikey bits and the rest for hands ... they couldn't wear armour because their bodies are so warped ... so I can imagine them still being able to carry stuff in a knapsack or something, makeshift belt maybe.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Wed 25 Nov 2009 - 23:58

Mortimer wrote:
I took it that Possessed didn't use weapons because they tended to have big meaty claws, pincers, tentacles, spikey bits and the rest for hands ... they couldn't wear armour because their bodies are so warped ... so I can imagine them still being able to carry stuff in a knapsack or something, makeshift belt maybe.

Yeah, I guess. Still, maybe their only concern is killing the enemy, and (as theya re seen as holy to the other of the warband) maybe they have the brethren carry their stuff for them, as their only agenda is killing, maiming and maybe devouring their enemies ("Would you like a mint, sir?").
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 2:07

This is another example of crappy proofreading on GW's part.

I don't like the idea of mutants being able to wield weapons in a tentacle (I also don't like the tail attack for skaven, but that's a separate issue), because it's illogical that tentacle would have the fine motor skills to weild a weapon with any finesse.

My rule would be this:

The model gains a tentacle, which can be used in hand
to hand combat. Posessed and mutants are affected
slightly differently.

Posessed: May use thier tentacle to grapple with an enemy
reducing the enemy model's number of attack by one (down
to a minimum of 1). The possessed may choose which attack
his opponent loses. He may only grapple with one opponent
at a time.

Mutants: The mutant's arm is replaced with a tentacle. He
loses the ability to carry a weapon, shield, or buckler in this
arm. He may grapple with an enemy, (see above), or he may
choose to attack with the tentacle, rather than grapple with it.
In this case the tentacle adds one attack at the models basic
strength. The tentacle attack has no particular bonuses or
penalties, as it is a natural weapon.

The reason mutants and possessed are dealt with separately is
that the mutant's ability to use weapons makes it hard to balance
the two with a single solution.

Giving a possessed a free attack with his tentacle would be very
powerful. They already start with a lot of attacks, and have the
potential to gain a lot more.

Mutants, on the other hand, replace a weapon wielding arm with a
tentacle. They lose a potential attack to deny the opponent one
attack. This slight change allows the mutant to use the arm
offensively (+1 attack), or defensively (grapple).
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 2:20

How about instead of everyone having a winge about the logic and changing rules because you dont like them, change a few whole words!

One of the mutantís arms ends in grows a tentacle. He may grapple his opponent in close combat to reduce his attacks by -1, down to a minimum of 1. The mutant may decide which attack his opponent loses.

its 35gcs...thats a whole new fighter, your kidding yourselves if you think its worth it if he loses a weapon.

EDIT: @ above comment. no one gets an extra attack...its about being able to retain use of that arm for normal purposes.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 22:11

I say you can still use a weapon or shield. (going by the rulebook)

Just look at the pestigor models. Tentacles helping hold a two handed weapon with deadly efficiency. (going by the models!)
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 10:33

The main reason Possessed start with 2 Attacks is the same reason why Ghouls have 2 Attacks. They can not use weapons. Since this is the case, if they had a Base 1 Attack stat, they would only be able to hit once. Unlike other Humanoid fighters that can use weapons , which have an Attack stat of 1, giving that fighter a strike with a main weapon and an Offhand weapon. Fighters can fight unarmed, meaning ďfistĒ they only get 1 hit. Normal Humanoids and Mutants can use weapons. Since Possessed and Ghouls can not use weapons, theyíd be at a disadvantage being only able to strike once per turn against fighter who can use weapons who can strike twice with two weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Sun 6 Dec 2009 - 22:23

Mutant and tentacle
I gotta agree with MrBrettonia here, and that is also how I will play. The tentacle does not replace anything, but simply grows out of the mutant. Also, i will not have the tentacle be able to carry or use ANYTHING to compensate.
Done and Done

One question left, though:
I dont know how many of you fight with this house rule (or maybe it is official?):
When a model is armed with two weapons, the main hand weapon strikes first, then, after any retaliations, the offhand weapon strikes. To simplify, we could say that any off-hand weapon attack counts as having 1 (or mayabe 0) Initiative. Then who strikes first if two models have an offhand attack left? The charger, obviously, and in other cases, the one with highest I to begin with. Otherwise you roll for it.
Now, to the question at hand: The tentacle mutation only states it reduses A of the attacker. Now, what about extra weapons? And also, if I grapple a sword, can the enemy use it to parry? Could I grapple a shield as well? (Incapacitate one arm).
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 1:25

How bout not use that rule because it doesnt make much sense. have a -1 or something, but not a strike last.

You can grapple any attack, you cant grapple a shield as its not an attack and your opponent gets to parry if your grapple a sword.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 8:24

The "Strike last with off-hand weapons" rule works great so I will NOT get rid of that one. It balances the game greatly, and prevents everyone from opting with two handweapons, making two-handed waeapons, halberds, morningstars and flails a viable choice again.

And yes, the grapple clearly does NOT allow grappling a shield-arm or preventing a parry, but do you not think that would be the case? (that was what the question was meant to be like from the beginning)
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 17:32

No i dont think its the case. grappling an arm with a weapon in it would be alot easier then grappling an arm behind a shield.
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 18:26

I don't think it matters if the tentacle is a separate limb or not, if your mutant model has a tentacle holding an axe and a sword in the other I'd say "Fine, he has a tentacle and can use two weapons" ... if he has two regular arms and a tentacle sprouting out of his forehead, I'd say "Fine, he can use two weapons and has a tentacle" but the tentacle never acts like an 'extra arm' so can't have a third weapon as it where ... I'd also say no to preventing using a shield or a parry ... just an attack, I'd personal allow it to block an attack from a second weapon as duel wielding is already powerful and the more things to counter it the better ... I'd say the attacker gets to choose which weapon he can use though?
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PostSubject: Re: Tentacle mutation & Possessed equipment   Tue 8 Dec 2009 - 3:40

I always learned that the Possessed may never use weapons, armour, or equipment. As a technical thing... meaning the Possesed may never use any weapons, armour, or equipment.

Rulebook, page 12 wrote:
Weapons/Armour: None. The Possessed never use weapons or armour.
Weapons/Armour: Mutants may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Possessed Equipment list.

But the Possessed can take Scale Sheer Surfaces (Speed Skill), so why bother with the rope and hook? Seems like a foolish piece of equipment for a Possessed.
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