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Silon
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PostSubject: Beastmen: mutation   Wed 1 Dec 2010 - 18:25

Can beastmen have more than one mutation each one? I mean, can I choose their special skill to have one twice ( or more ) or only once?
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 6:51

I believe that you can only take each skill once... although I'm no rules mod.

My group lets the Beastmen learn from the Rewards of the Shadowlord optional table (in the back of the book), so there is potential for other mutations... if you roll right, of course.

There's also the Corrupted Characters rules that Werekin developed... but that has to be applied to ALL players. I've yet to try them, but they look like a lot of fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 8:03

Most people I have Herd house rule that you can have a limited number of each usually they limit it from 1 of each to up 5 of each.

I have also heard of groups going Mutation and saying that you can have one of certain mutations and up to 3 to 5 of others. Mostly they seem to be more fluff related or the mutation wouldn't make sense if they had it more then once. For example hideous gives the model Fear, it doesn't make sense to have Fear more then once. Other Mutations like Scorpion Tail, they limit to low number like 3 to 5 at the most.

I has some friends play in a Champaign that did not restrict mutations and one of the guys got over 10 Scorpion tails so if he charged pretty much any model he take it OOA. If I remember correctly he was a mutant that he bought 2 scorpion tails, he started with Zero Exp so everything he got a skill he rolled on the Shadowlord Table, so he got a lot of them early on, and with the multipule tails he was able to get a lot of extra exp.
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Silon
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 9:19

Thanks for the answers, a couple of questions that I'm still not sure of:
1) Can beastmen have more than one DIFFERENT mutation?
2) Can beastmen have the SAME mutation more than once?
3) Where can I find the Rewards of the Shadowlord optional table? ( Answered )


Last edited by Silon on Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 12:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 10:53

Rewards: Is part of the original Rulebook, specifically in the Campaign PDF, in the Optional Rules Section. (near the back)
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Silon
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 12:55

Thanks for answering!, question 1 and 2 haven't got an answer yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 13:24

No official ruling that I know of... only the common sense/fairness, really-


Daemon soul, blackblood, spines, hideous, cloven hoofs- once each!
Claw - goes on the end of an arm, so you can't have more claws than arms!
Arms - +2 seems fair to me...
Scorpion Tail - I'd argue one

If someone is a very fair player, and wants to have more than 2 extra arms or 1 tail, some leniency might be expected... if they a player prone to abusing things for his own gain (like Mr. Scorpio mentioned above... brr!), make this declaration:

"You want 4 scorpion tails? Fine. Bring me a model with 4 scorpion tails coming out of his back side of his hips."

I'd argue that one (maybe two) tails would fit on a model... I don't need to see it. I doubt you could have a mutant with four tails, so I'd argue that I don't think it's possible till I see it. (And no, you can't stick it ANYWHERE... it says "tail".... heh heh heh.)

And if he does manage it? Give it to him. That shows dedication.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 13:26

1. If you are only using the core list then no the only mutation rules are only for Possessed, Mutants and the Magistare.

If you are using other settings it is possible. For example in Border Town Burning (BTB) they can gain them through visiting the Northern Wastes then next time you level-up you can choose a mutation over a new skill see the Corrupted Characters rules. There are also ways to gain mutations via Random Events and Exploration. Although they are rare.

2. There are no rules that defined a limit of Mutations. Although many people house rule limits on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Thu 2 Dec 2010 - 13:30

@rudeboy: actually, there's the beastman skill:

Mutant- The Beastman may buy one mutation. See Mutants section on special rules.


There IS not "mutants" section in the Beastmen warband, but I think they mean the Possessed list.

Another cap: If your group DID rule that you could take the Mutant skill more than once, then the same mutation "cost" should apply, I suppose: each mutation past the first costs DOUBLE the coins. Seems fair.
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Silon
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Fri 3 Dec 2010 - 16:52

It seems that i'll have to discuss it with my friends. Thanks very much for your answers.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 6 Dec 2010 - 6:48

@ StyrofoamKing - you are correct under the Beastmen list from Empire in Flames there is a mutant skill. Sorry I was thinking about the possessed list.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 6 Dec 2010 - 17:35

It has always been a GW stand-by, that you can only have one "tail" or "bite" mutation each. This originates from the realms of chaos books i believe. It is an unsaid rule applied to all their games sort of like how you can never re-roll a re-roll! The problem with unsaid rules is that no one bothers to mention them to new players!

Now for mordheim, rewards of the shadow lord are dangerous, and often just wasteful. I can't tell you how many times i sent someone away only to return with no a wasted a level up! Whoever managed to get 10 scorpion tails was suspiciously lucky with their rolls...

If you want to play it by the book, sure a lucky mutant can get multiple tails arms and claws, but you better make damn sure he is playing wysiwyg! To prevent this sort of modeling madness I recommend you follow styro's assumptions about limb limitations.

Also note that if you use warekin's corrupted characters article, which i recommend you do, it adds a few more mutations to the list.

I house rule that any hero in the Possessed Warband besides actual "possessed" can go to the shadow lord, including Beastmen promoted to heroes.

I can't really recommend allowing heroes from the Beastmen Warband to visit the shadow lord. That warband already has access to mutations in a semi-random way (the skill). I you want more randomness, use Corrupted Characters.

Edit: Sorry didn't realize i was writing as essay...
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Silon
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 6 Dec 2010 - 18:02

The biggest problem that I have with mutations using beastmen is that it says "Beastmen may buy ONE mutation" and thats why my friends say that beastmen can only have one mutation each.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 6 Dec 2010 - 18:22

I'm having a hard time thinking of a skill you can take more than once in the core rules. The only skill I can think of are the ludicrous 'Bodyguard' skills of the Arabian Merchant and other experimental hired swords based on the Merchant. Take the skill, hire a bodyguard. Bodyguard gets killed, take the skill again. Lame mechanic.

I've run Beastmen a couple of times and I figured that was it, take the skill gain one mutation, done.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 6 Dec 2010 - 19:57

Silon wrote:
The biggest problem that I have with mutations using beastmen is that it says "Beastmen may buy ONE mutation" and thats why my friends say that beastmen can only have one mutation each.

Well, that IS the rule. Each skill you can take only once, each lets you buy only one mutation.

If your group will LET you, you may take the skill more than once... however, you are now breaking the core rules, and going into house rules. If any single person in your group objects, they have every right to say no to you.

Quote :
I can't really recommend allowing heroes from the Beastmen Warband to visit the shadow lord. That warband already has access to mutations in a semi-random way (the skill).

Heh. Well, that was one of the things Master and I devised for the (near abandoned) Athel Loren campaign we started on. Each the warbands allowed in the setting would have have access to their own "Rewards" path...
Rewards of the Lady - Bowmen of Bergarac or Bret Knights
Rewards of the Renewer - Bowmen, Horned Hunters or Wood Elves
Rewards of the Hunter - Wood Elves, Hunters, Slayers, Forest Goblins, or Savage Orcs
Rewards of the Devourer - Savage Orcs, Beastmen, Forest Goblins
Rewards of the Shadows - Beastmen (same as Shadowlords)

So long as EVERYBODY had an equal chance of gaining awesome abilities (or wasting them on bad rolls), then the Rewards seemed all around fairer.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Fri 10 Dec 2010 - 21:21

I got a side question regarding the same topic.

It says on the skill description:

"Mutant: The Beastman may buy one mutation. See mutants Section on special rules. "

Does that imply that you must buy a mutation by spending gold crowns? I would think that you must, but it just seems odd that you must "spend" a skill AND crowns to get it.

I mean, it's not as if my bestigor buys a 3rd arm and it gets transplanted, he just grows a 3rd one!

Thanks in advance,

Zonq
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Sat 11 Dec 2010 - 4:40

Fluffwise, it doesn't make sense to pay for the mutation, yes. Ruleswise it does and it can't be put any plainer than by saying "may BUY one mutation". The mutations are inequally usefull and so you should invest a different amount. I see this skill a little like weapons expert. In itself, it does't do a thing. But you must choose it in order to later have more "equipment"-options.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Sun 12 Dec 2010 - 17:25

We have two Beastmen warbands in our current campaign. We are using the rules in the Corrupted Characters article created by Werekin for the Mutiny in Marienburg suppliment.

The rules in this article greatly increase the options for mutations. One of the Beastmen warbands has the mark of Shornaal and the other has the mark of Onogal. We're having a great deal of fun with these rules and I highly recommend them to you if you are interested in mutations for Beastmen. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 13 Dec 2010 - 3:41

Zonq - Considering most mutations are FAR stronger than your average skill, it fits in terms of balance.

Grimskull - Well, it fits as much as ANYTHING in Mord when money doesn't make sense. Ultimately, it comes down to resources... rather than paying "50 gold" to a evil collection plate, you're using up 50 gold worth of items in some arcane ritual. It requires- I don't know- wyrdstone, fresh virgins, and black candles. Those things aren't free, you know!
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 13 Dec 2010 - 4:56

Who stays a Beastmen-Chieftain for long if he doesn't know where to get his "fresh virgins" (is there any other kind?) for free? His boy's fighting morale might get a little low otherwise jocolor
btw it is Grimscull, not Skull. It's about boats, not skeletons. zombie
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 13 Dec 2010 - 6:37

My apologies!

Of course there are unfresh virgins... someimes you have to find a spinster aunt.

Personally, I love the Terry Pratchett exchange (paraphrased, I'm afraid)

"What do you mean by sacrifice?"
"Normally, they chaing a virgin up to a blood big rock."
"Well, we're out of luck. Nothing but loam around here."
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Mon 13 Dec 2010 - 8:39

Yeah Mutations are a lot better then a skill.

There is no skill that gives you an extra attack at +1 Str or at a flat 5 str (3 str vs undead).

Ok maybe Quickshot, if you also upgrade from a bow to a Crossbow or start buying the upgraded black powder.

Personally I think that you should have to get a different mutation everytime, and have the mutations be designated 1 Bite, 2 Arms, 2 Legs, Tail, head (like horns) and General. The a couple choices for each type, maybe 2 or 3 of each type. It would limit the total number, but I think that like 8 mutations isn't that limiting really.

The most I have ever seen is a character with 4 mutations, they started with 2 then gained 2 more via upgrades.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen: mutation   Today at 5:46

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