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J0shua85
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PostSubject: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 8:54

Hi again.

As mentioned I'm a bit uncertain about the rules regarding the "spines" mutation for cult of the possessed. When read of the Mordheimer page it goes like this:

"Any model in base contact with the mutant suffers an automatic Strength 1 hit at the beginning of each close combat phase. Spines will never cause critical hits."

My questions are:

1. Am I correct in thinking that this means the spines attack will occur every turn in close combat AND will be resolved before any other attacks?

2. Does the spine attack also occur if the mutant has been knocked down or stunned, so technically it still poses a threat this way?

3. if say, an attacker is wounded by the spines and becommes stunned, is it then possible for the mutant to put the victim out of action in the same turn?

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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 11:37

1) Its not each playerís turn. Itís each combat round. Your turn to your turn is 1 round.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, since its still your turn you can still hit and wound as normal, taking the highest wound result. However, you canít Stun and Auto-OOA, with the same attacker in same round.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 13:39

1) If however it is phrased exactly like that, phases would mean that it's in both your and your opponents turn.

A round is both your turn and your opponents, where your turn is made up of the 3 phases, movement shooting and close combat.
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J0shua85
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 13:58

Ezekiel wrote:
1) If however it is phrased exactly like that, phases would mean that it's in both your and your opponents turn.

A round is both your turn and your opponents, where your turn is made up of the 3 phases, movement shooting and close combat.

The phrase is copy/pasted from mordheimer.com so if its wrong, then the mistake is also on their page Razz

Shadowphx wrote:

3) Yes, since its still your turn you can still hit and wound as normal, taking the highest wound result. †However, you canít Stun and Auto-OOA, with the same attacker in same round. †

By this do you mean, that if the spines have stunned the enemy, you cannot just put it out of action, as per normal procedure for stunned units, but you can make it roll for injury for each of your normal attacks to see if they roll a 5 or 6?
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 14:05

I'm sorry, Ezekiel is correct. I was reading wrong. For some reason, I was thinking Combat to Return Combat in the same player's turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Tue 14 Jan 2014 - 19:24

Quote :
1. Am I correct in thinking that this means the spines attack will occur every turn in close combat AND will be resolved before any other attacks?
Yes.

Quote :
2. Does the spine attack also occur if the mutant has been knocked down or stunned, so technically it still poses a threat this way?
Yes.

Quote :
3. if say, an attacker is wounded by the spines and becomes stunned, is it then possible for the mutant to put the victim out of action in the same turn?
Not automatically. The mutant must still roll to hit and wound the model as all attacks occur in the same phase even if the spines strike first.

See Mordheim Rule Book (online) p. 21
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Wed 15 Jan 2014 - 1:26

Ahh! Thanks to everyone for clearing this up!

After reading all this I get the feeling that spines are hands down the best mutation for the price, at least for the opening warband.

Does anybody have any experience or statistical calculations on this?
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Wed 15 Jan 2014 - 8:46

No calculations, but yes, in my experience it is the spines that take out the majority of the models. That being said, getting *only* spines is not the best idea. Spines get most of their kills by taking out models that were stunned or knocked down in previous turns and could not normally be targeted because of standing models. The best way to do make sure there are models knocked down or stunned is to have a claw, tail, black blood, or something similar to do that.

Basically, spines are no good if you are getting the cheapest possessed you can, but they are most definitely the best second or third mutation to get a possessed.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Wed 15 Jan 2014 - 8:53

I personally don't care to purchase that mutation. Mainly because at strength 1 hit, against a toughness 3 or 4, you still have to roll a 6 to wound. Those are risky odds for me. For 5 gold more, I'd go with either a Scorpion Tail, with a strength 5 to wound; or an Extra Arm and carry a weapon in it. Both options are better odds and wounding and taking out an enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Wed 15 Jan 2014 - 9:09

The spines are mostly for taking out KD warriors that you otherwise couldn't target. For them it doesn't *matter* what the toughness of the target is, they are OOA automatically. Getting a few wounding hits is just gravy.

Oh yeah, and they also get rid of any pesky lucky charms and parrys that might be around too.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Wed 15 Jan 2014 - 17:47

Quote :
The spines are mostly for taking out KD warriors that you otherwise couldn't target. For them it doesn't *matter* what the toughness of the target is, they are OOA automatically.

You mean 'stunned warriors'. Knocked Down targets still need to be wounded, usually on a roll of a 6.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Thu 16 Jan 2014 - 7:14

Even if it's only one in six it hits everything automatically, so I imagine that the sheer quantity of attacks makes up for its lack in power, especially against groups of unarmored henchmen.

I've considered making an experimental warband with full heroes, all possessed and mutants having spines, as well as two brethren as swordfodder. This would mean no weapons apart from a few double dagger wields.

My strategi would then be to get in close for the kills, probably loosing the first few battles by routing when my brethren fell. With the relatively low starting xp for possessed heroes, I would hope for some quick levelling, further improved by the additional attacks from the spines mutations. The cost of this strategy would of course be no ranged, in the first scenario at least, and real equipment plus stronger henchmen would have to wait a few games.

How do you think such a band would fare in one of your games?
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Thu 16 Jan 2014 - 8:43

@Von Kurst: I did indeed. Thank you for the correction Smile.

@Joshua: The strategy is fine, it is just that there are better mutations to take if you are only going to give them one. That, of course, depends on your next step. Are you going to keep the possessed and mutants for the whole campaign or do you intend to replace them with more mutated heroes later?

In a campaign with my group it would probably do reasonably well, especially if you were able to pull off a bit of finessing with the scenario selection and multiplayer games. Also assuming you then replaced the mutants and possessed with more potent models later, but in my group we tend towards very long campaigns. Strictly speaking, we haven't even really had that many seperate campaigns. What tends to happen is that when one warband gets too powerful to be challenged it is retired until someone else gets that high also and then it is brought out of retirement. Everyone has two or three warbands of varying levels of strength and we match up what we think will be most amusing at the time.

In a shorter campaign I would be tempted to do much as you say, but replace one of the possessed with, say, great claw, tentacle, and spines at the earliest opportunity. Choose scenarios where there is a lot of loot available that doesn't necessarily need to be directly fought over. Defend The Find is the best for this, followed by Chance Encounter, Wyrdstone hunt, and treasure hunt.

Defend the Find is best because you both starting warbands can walk away with 5 shards each (6 for Skaven, 4 for Orcs and Dwarfs). If you are the defender, just let the opponent get enough models close enough to win and bam, 5 easy shards each. Of course, you should only try that with an opponent you can trust - none of those agreements are binding in game so there is nothing stopping them approaching under the cover of parley and then charging at the last minute.

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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Thu 16 Jan 2014 - 16:51

Lord 0 wrote:
Defend the Find is best because you both starting warbands can walk away with 5 shards each (6 for Skaven, 4 for Orcs and Dwarfs). If you are the defender, just let the opponent get enough models close enough to win and bam, 5 easy shards each. Of course, you should only try that with an opponent you can trust - none of those agreements are binding in game so there is nothing stopping them approaching under the cover of parley and then charging at the last minute.

In Defend the Find there's a maximum of 3 shards gained pr. warband, in case you haven't noticed†study

Quote :
Wyrdstone
One shard of wyrdstone for each Hero of either warband who is inside the objective building at the end of the game (up to a maximum of three shards per warband).
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Fri 17 Jan 2014 - 12:25

Hah, so there is. Shows how long it has been since we looked at the rulebook when playing Smile. In any case, it is still the best scenario for getting loot without anyone dying.
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PostSubject: Re: Spines Mutation   Today at 13:37

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