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Mortimer
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PostSubject: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 3:56

In my noobishness I have the silly notion of trying to write and rewrite certain Warband to try for better balance, playability.

I like the idea of the Shadow Warriors, but gameplay wise (and fluff wise to an extent .... if you put aside having Amazons running around Mordheim I guess Smile ) the warband is broken and will dominate any others.

So what is it that makes them dominate? The stats I find hard to justify to much lower as Elves are made out to be ... good, at things (especially loner Dark Elf hunters) ... but I may very well be wrong about not wanting to change that.

One thing I looked to was price, Shadow Warriors are cheaper compared to similar or worse warriors from other warbands.

Imposing some more limits was another idea: 0-2 Shadow Walkers for example.

The other thought I had which I'm not sure would help or not, would be to introduce a 'Slow Witted' for Elves along the lines of 'Alittle knowledge is a dangerous thing' ... Elves finding the lesser races rather reckless when it comes to learning skills and talents all will nilly.

Suggestions (Other than "Don't play them" please) would be helpful Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 4:27

Shadow Warriors were assigned costs based on (apparently) their usefulness in Warhammer and NOT Mordheim. Their high movement and initiative means they can climb, leap, jump, and otherwise avoid almost any enemies because most of the other fast units in the game are beasts and thus can't climb. Add to this their high WS and BS and you have a force that can always choose to fight on their own terms - avoiding the worst threats while slicing through everything else. Their high Ld also means that those warbands that rely on psychology lose their advantage for a relatively small difference in cost.


I'm not sure how you'd fix them while keeping with their fluff - a cost increase would be good, and I like the idea of slower progression, though I think only allowing them every other "level up" would be too much of a handicap.
The fairness of Shadow Warriors also depends on what warbands are allowed - compared to the Lustria warbands, they're not nearly as overpowered as they are against the core warbands.

I'm anxious to see what you come up with!
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 4:43

This is a very rough start I posted in another thread. So let me see what you think.

HEROES

1 Shadow Master
90 Gold Coins

0-2 Shadow Walkers (Limit downsized from 3 to 2)
55 Gold Coins.

0-1 Shadow Weaver
65 Gold Coins

HENCHMEN

Shadow Warriors
45 Gold Coins

0-4 Shadow Warrior Novices
30 Gold Coins (I've heard complaints about abusing the Novices, so I put a limit on them, I may even consider dropping them completely).

Elven Bows become Hero only.

Walkers, Weavers and Warriors have a reduced Initiative of 5. Makes the Elven Ranger somewhat better than a standard Elf, but than he's a ranger, I think being quick would be suitable.

I've considered lowering the Characteristic Increase for Elves Toughness from 4 to 3 (Which I believe draws them in line with modern Warhammer?).

Warrior rarity(?): It takes one battle after purchasing new warriors before they actually join your Warband, representing the journey from Ulthuin or other distant place that Shadow Warriors might be.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 7:03

someone in my group plays shadow warriors, and to great effect. it wouldn't bother me so much that he beats me all the time if it wasn't for the fact that his warband only has six guys in it and he still always wins... everyone fires 2 shots that hit on 2's seemingly regaurdless of modifiers, everyone in his warband has lucky charms step aside and heavy armor, and almost everyone in the warband is T4 with W2. as for price changes and limiting how many heroes they can take i don't feel i know enough about the warband to comment on. making elven bows heroes only seems alright, but i think if it gets to a point where a player begins equipping whole henchmen groups with elven bows perhaps the campaign has run its course. I6 to start off with has always bugged me about elves, i know they're fast, but come one 6's for everyone? maybe the leader but not everybody. i don't play WHF, but i think T3 cap might be overdoing it; if goblins can be T4 so can elves. i also think the whole warrior rarity is a bit much. of course another thing is anything done stat wise to these elves should be reflected on dark elves no?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 7:49

AFKzombie wrote:
of course another thing is anything done stat wise to these elves should be reflected on dark elves no?

Indeed, but I've heard alot less gnashing of teeth over the Dark Elves, I feel that tackling the Shadow Warriors first would be best, but I am keeping in mind how changes would effect elves on the whole.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 9:11

This game suffers massive balance issues. I think that what it needs is a design manual. A guide to balance. Each stat, each ability given a value. This game's point system, Gold Crowns, is flawed. It is trying to represent two things at the same time. This needs to be abolished. An item or model's GC cost should directly represent it's usefulness in the game, not its cost in a RPG. Until the "value" of an item on the table is standardized, this game will never be balanced.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 12:27

Elves should be unable to raise their toughness above three, as is currently the case in warhammer.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 12:30

They need only this fix to make them really balanced in a campain.
But this incongruence is because the living rulebook need a refix in all Maximal Charact Tables ^^ ...

Why not to use the "Great Heroes" points of 7th edition of warhammer?

Dwarf with I5 not using runes enhancemente make no sense too Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 14:14

Elves not being able to get Strength skills (except via Powerful Build) is a better cap than limiting them to T3, and already exists. From what I can determine, a T3 limit is too much, and will end up with Elves being wound on a 3+ most of the time by the 4th/5th campaign turn. Maybe Powerful Build should be removed from the Shadow Elves' skills, though...

Here are the adjustments I've put in place now for our Shadow Elves:
1. I6 only for Shadow Master; I4 for Novices; I5 for everyone else
2. Allowed the Pirate warband's Spyglass as Miscellaneous Equipment available to all
3. Adjusted cost and starting xp per the below:

Shadow Master: 90gc, 28xp
Shadow Walker: 50gc, 11xp
Shadow Weaver: 60gc, 14xp
Shadow Warriors: 50gc
Shadow Novices: 35gc

For Dark Elves, we've taken the revisions done at http://www.druchii.net/viewforum.php?f=72&sid=138f8ba16761e963dad9c05416aef9f7 and modified them a little further (such as increasing cost and xp analogous to Shadow Elves). We are playtesting the Dark Elves during the current campaign, and are finding that the model costs are fairly extreme at the beginning - but we feel that if you want those stats, you'll pay the price and tough it out.

Our adjustments for Shadow Elves are untested, but balanced by a points value formula (which I'm still tweaking). This points balance formula is a part of my current Mordheim rules revision - I have it working well for most models, but some (like Trolls, Ogres, Rat Ogres, and Minotaurs) are still out of whack for what we want to see.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 15:48

wyldhunt wrote:
Elves not being able to get Strength skills (except via Powerful Build) is a better cap than limiting them to T3, and already exists.

But since they are considered unbalanced with that rule already in place... it's not helping, is it?

I don't see how limiting them to T3 would suddenly move them from overpowered to underpowered.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 18:47

I agree with Meerkat on this and we've had a long-standing house rule that an Elf's toughness is capped at 3.

The warband is still incredibly mean, though. Limiting Elf Bows to heroes sounds good, as does increasing the amount of experience everyone begins with. I might even consider having the henchmen groups begin with 2 xp...

Maybe with some of these modifications, my group will re-allow Shadow Warriors in normal campaigns!
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 19:04

I think T3 is enough , to have some realistic games in a campain.
I think many warbands have some problems with racial maximums.
I hope someone like the writers of "BtB" would make a good fixed new table.

p.s. in the druchii community they have fixed the racial maximum (i think you could use it)
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 20:30

garathiel wrote:
I hope someone like the writers of "BtB" would make a good fixed new table.

Er, why, would a good fixed table by someone else be even less official?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 21:05

I don't really think T3 would be a problem... as they have mad skills... High Initiative will account for fey build...

I'm a great fan of Elves, - playing all three races in WHFB, and currently, I have no problems with them being weak, as long as their skills can be used, they are a serious force to reckon with...

I played with or against elves a few times, and they are indeed pretty good at fighting at their own terms, soit's up to the player to make those terms, and if he makes those good terms, the fey build will not be a problem... if he's somewhat bad at it... then it's his problem to deal with that.

So Capping them at T3, as indeed all the WHFB elves are now, is in my mind a good idea. As I like the Idea better of superior skills and weak build, to bulky elves with limited skill....

the High Initiative would also reflect the Always strike first rule they have nowadays in WHFB - (I know, a lot of folks hate that new rule... but it's still beatable... you just need to know the trick... - as it turned out today, Wood Elf shooting is a bitch, even to Awsomesauced Dragon Princes...) - and therefore the whole Elven fluff as well.

Maybe I should dust off my old shadow warriors again!? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 3:12

meerkat wrote:
wyldhunt wrote:
Elves not being able to get Strength skills (except via Powerful Build) is a better cap than limiting them to T3, and already exists.

But since they are considered unbalanced with that rule already in place... it's not helping, is it?

I don't see how limiting them to T3 would suddenly move them from overpowered to underpowered.
Unbalanced - for their listed cost. Very important to note that. However...

Ezekiel wrote:
As I like the Idea better of superior skills and weak build, to bulky elves with limited skill
You may have something there. Perhaps Fail but Fey is good, if Powerful Build can be taken by more than 2 Shadow Elves in the band, and added to the Druchii skill list. That way, the elf heroes can still have access to Resilient, but taking an additional skill pick to get there. This would represent a skill-based way rather than just a straight-up Toughness increase, and would only benefit in HtH, not Shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 7:38

maybe the skill powerful build could also increase the toughness cap on that elf to 4, and leaving it at only 2 elves can have it?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 8:08

Seems a fair trade off is Elves are restricted to T3, but Powerful Build becomes open to more heroes (given that some way, either by Wyld's increases or another system Elves will gain experience slower I think this is ok).

Powerful Build will have one restriction however, it cannot be taken by the Shadow Weaver, I feel this is appropriate (For the Druchi/Dark Elves the Sorceress will get a similar restriction).
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 10:49

Add the following special rules to the Shadow Elves:

Centenarian:
Elves are often of great age, 200 years of life is not rare for an elf. Elves therefore experience time and life in a different pace than most other creatures, and a certain event has therefore less impact on an elf's life. Therefore an elf only receive half an experience point each time it gains experience, inside as well as outside a battle.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 12:00

I deem the experience cap a good thing! As I don't see young elves wandering around in mordheim that much, my thought is they are old elves, which got stuck in the old world (either left remaining there after the war with the dwarves, or some other war in which they participated) and making them outcast sort of elves (why else would they bother hanging around in such a desolate place, not worthy of anything, and bereft of beauty or pleasure?)
So they have learned most of their skills prior to their entry in Mordheim, and are not learning much new stuff there... so perhaps giving them high starting exp. limiting their new skill slots a bit more is a good thing, and gaining half the exp. further slows down their progress...

Though that raises the question of: should they start off with more skills in their starting profile? as they have undoubtedly learned a lot prior to entering Mordheim?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 12:08

Popmouth wrote:
Centenarian:
Elves are often of great age, 200 years of life is not rare for an elf. Elves therefore experience time and life in a different pace than most other creatures, and a certain event has therefore less impact on an elf's life. Therefore an elf only receive half an experience point each time it gains experience, inside as well as outside a battle.

Best suggestion I have seen so far. Very fluffy and elegant. thumbsup

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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 19:15

Cheers ^_^ it's quite easy to apply as well, you just fill out a dash instead of a x in the box for every half exp.
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 19:24

Popmouth wrote:
Cheers ^_^ it's quite easy to apply as well, you just fill out a dash instead of a x in the box for every half exp.

Would of never thought of it my self .... <.< >.>
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 22:12

Well, I know it's obvious, even so the most obvious things tend to pass people by anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 22:24

Popmouth wrote:
Well, I know it's obvious, even so the most obvious things tend to pass people by anyway...

Sorry, I just thought I suggested the same mechanic in my first post Razz

Nicely worded out though, I like it Smile Though I wonder if that along with the other restrictions are going to be abit to heavy on the elves?
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PostSubject: Re: What is the Inherent Problems with Shadow Warriors?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 22:42

Hmm, why do you asume this, everyone claims them to be greatly over-powered, and many gives witness of 6 odd elves beating every warband in their gaming group to the pulp! Perhaps the experience penetly should only apply to the experience earned after each battle; kills etc. give full points as normal (?)

O and yes you where kind of suggesting the same, and I therefore took the idea to the next level so to speak Razz. Well, "slow-witted" didn't seem that fluff wise.
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