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 Are shadow warriors overpowered?

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Tok
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PostSubject: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 17 Dec 2008 - 17:40

Tried a search, didnt find anything about them. Are they to good? Their stats seem crazy, especially for the low cost (compared to dwaves).
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 17 Dec 2008 - 19:56

There is a reason why they have lost their former "offical" status and now are "unofficial". Actually having Elves in Mordheim will easily result in a heated discussion since many people don't think that they can be justified in this setting. If you are playing in a different setting than the city of the damned, however, you should have no problems justifying their presence. This doesn't solve the balancing issues of the Shadow Warriors, of course...

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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 17 Dec 2008 - 20:03

Everything i've read, and do note i haven't played them or seen them palyed, says they are able to hide close to terrain and unleash ranged hell on enemies making them a very campy team.

Reiklanders with super sights anyone agree?

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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 1:43

I have played them (once) and played against them several times and I don't have a problem with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 15:57

I haven't played with/against them much, to be honest, but when I have I have never noticed a problem. I think, perhaps, people can abuse them easier then other warbands - but then it becomes more of an issue with a WAAC player then a balancing issue with the warband itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 16:03

What is waac?
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 16:32

waac win at all cost if i´am not mistaken
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 16:34

ah, thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 16:53

Grimor wrote:
waac win at all cost if i´am not mistaken

Didn't know that either... Suspect

Sounds a bit like Waaagh! to me..

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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 17:25

Yup - Win At All Cost. Can't stand players like that in any game. Fortunately, my friends play games for fun, not victories. That's just a bonus Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 17:34

Ethlorien: Me/mine too.

I can't stand SW, they can out-climb, out-shoot and out-run pretty much everybody.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 20:26

Meh. Last time I played 'em, my BTB marauders won. In the end, my boys were waaay tougher then them puny elves. We play with tons of cover, so missile fire ain't a huge issue. Eventually my gors and hounds catch up and hold 'em down til me warriors hack 'em to pieces!

Though, to be fair, there was that game waaaay back when my Marauder leader took an arrow to the eye (through three windows across two damn buildings!) and died. Bloody elves!
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 18 Dec 2008 - 21:10

[quote="Ethlorien"]Meh. Last time I played 'em, my BTB marauders won. In the end, my boys were waaay tougher then them puny elves. We play with tons of cover, so missile fire ain't a huge issue. Eventually my gors and hounds catch up and hold 'em down til me warriors hack 'em to pieces!/quote]

Good to hear you killed them elves! And yes, the gaming table and scenery the gaming groups use do influence the strengths/weakness of warbands a lot. This should never be underestimated.

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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Sat 20 Dec 2008 - 17:02

[quote="cianty"]
Ethlorien wrote:
Meh. Last time I played 'em, my BTB marauders won. In the end, my boys were waaay tougher then them puny elves. We play with tons of cover, so missile fire ain't a huge issue. Eventually my gors and hounds catch up and hold 'em down til me warriors hack 'em to pieces!/quote]

Good to hear you killed them elves! And yes, the gaming table and scenery the gaming groups use do influence the strengths/weakness of warbands a lot. This should never be underestimated.

Expanding on these points, Ethlorien and other posters above appear to agree that abuse of Sniper and massed ranged shooting by SW's is over powered- excpet where good amounts of terrain are concerned. However, lots of terrain can equally benefit them as their above average move of 5 means they can move and shoot as they go moving to keep away from the enemy and wittling them as they go. But then you're ignoring combat. And we get into the old arguments presented on the SG Boards every couple of months or so (at least the last time I was there).

I play SW and I play them well. The warband we don't have issues witha s a whole, yes they have really good stats, but they can't use poions or drugs and that limits certain funa spects of the game plus their equipment options are incredibly narrow. A Dagger, Sword, Spear, 2 Handed Weapon and look at that a Long bow and an Elf Bow. There, that's ALL teh weapons options you can get (IIRC). Most other warbands have close on double that amount of equipment options some even triple the amount which brings in massive flexibility to those warbands that teh SW simply do not have unless their heroes use a skill to specialise further. Yes there are combinations and certain builds tha break them but the same can be said of any list.

I'd like to expand on the point that cianty made on the scenery/gaming table influences the strengths/weaknesses of the warband, and point out that the strength of the player at the game of Mordheim itself actually determines how powerful any warband is and if they happen to be playing SW and they beat everyone people turn around and pick them apart because of the higher startings tas (an advantage) but ignore weaknesses in the list such as poor armour and toughness as well as a muchly limited starting equipment list really presenting only one or two varied builds and thus making them appear again and again with thos ebuilds (Longbow, Spear, Sword, Dagger, Shield, Light Armour, Helmet - gives the total flexibility of the list but also limits them to the same roles every game and thus making them predictable and thus easier to defeat.

IMHO SW are not over powered, but rather misunderstood and not properly analysed as a whole in all aspects of the game.

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Mon 22 Dec 2008 - 8:54

A friend of mine used too play SW. And I played with dwarves, but that became a real turkey shoot! The elves runned away, shooting hails of arrows and my slow dwars couldend reach them in time. But maby if you play with a other warband it's easyer to win...
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Mon 22 Dec 2008 - 11:27

Would shadow walkers without bows work?
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 13:06

i think shadow warriros are nice to play but they aernet OP never no xD
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 16:10

i think the original Shadow Warriors aren't overpowered. With enough cover(!) the puny S3 Bows will not make enough damage and in melee there are many enemies equall or even better.
Additionally Shadow Warriors miss some important Weapons. Only Sword, Spear and 2h-Weapons are a strong backslash. Additionally they have limited access to Strength Skills, so you have a hard time against enemies with high Toughness.

I played often against Posessed and Reikländer and sometimes against Skaven, Sisters and Witchhunter.

Against Posessed and Reikländer i often struggled and had to flee, against the others i had a good chance, but i think it was not because of the warband. It was that the player were relative new and unexperienced players.

In my opinion they are a good but far not broken warband.

@Walkers without Bows:
normaly i have only the master and one other Walker with bows, the rest of them is far better in melee. Leap and See in the Shadows make them a good strike force.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 17:31

Have you noticed that most people who say they aren't OP have "Shadow Warriors" as primary warband? Very Happy

I think they are among the strongest of the official and unofficial warbands. They all have high BS and access to long bow / elf bow. Pick quick shot with all heroes and soon you have 15+ arrows per turn. Since they are also great at climbing, it's hard to get a good charge on them.

Saying that, I agree with their options being limited. In my opinion, that only makes them boring, not worse.

They don't need Strength skills, Quick Shot, Trick Shooter, Sniper, Eagle Eyes should keep you occupied for a while. If that is not enough, then Sprint, Scale Sheer Surface, Jump Up, Dodge and Acrobat are all fine picks.

Edit: Forgot to mention Rabbit's foot and Hunting arrows. Those items are very good at low - medium cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 17:48

In my gaming Group i have as enemies a posessed warband with two posessed with exatly these skills:
sprint, jump, Scale sheer surfaces, jump Up, Dodge and Evade.

Two melee monsters with around 16 to 21" attack distance (in two rounds he is in my starting zone).

What can you do against something like that with S3 Arrows against T5....
The first two turns he will give me no chance to shoot against any target and after that he is in charge range.

The Mutants get Chaosarmor or Gromril.

The Reikländer got a hunting rifle, and Marksman with Crossbows and Bow. They can match me in range combat and can still bring a good melee troop in play...

Perhaps its coming from my play style with only 5 shooting modells in my warband (2 Heroes, 2 Henchelves and the ranger) that i never feel the overrated firepower, but my shooters are mostly enough to get the enemies mages and perhaps trigger the lucky charm, but after that, i go in hand to hand with my enemy or i get easily beaten up.

I think i can muster only a third of my games as wins, perhaps even less.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 18:49

Saranor wrote:
In my gaming Group i have as enemies a posessed warband with two posessed with exatly these skills:
sprint, jump, Scale sheer surfaces, jump Up, Dodge and Evade.

Two melee monsters with around 16 to 21" attack distance (in two rounds he is in my starting zone).

What can you do against something like that with S3 Arrows against T5....
The first two turns he will give me no chance to shoot against any target and after that he is in charge range.

The Mutants get Chaosarmor or Gromril.

The Reikländer got a hunting rifle, and Marksman with Crossbows and Bow. They can match me in range combat and can still bring a good melee troop in play...

Perhaps its coming from my play style with only 5 shooting modells in my warband (2 Heroes, 2 Henchelves and the ranger) that i never feel the overrated firepower, but my shooters are mostly enough to get the enemies mages and perhaps trigger the lucky charm, but after that, i go in hand to hand with my enemy or i get easily beaten up.

I think i can muster only a third of my games as wins, perhaps even less.

The possessed are monsters (litteraly!) when they have a few (read; many) games. They are hard to start with though. I would aim for his other guys (with T4 or less) to try make him route.

If he has 6 skills with both his possessed (as well as a toughness level up), your guys should be able to have quick shot (most important shooting skill) + a number of melee skills. A long bow is only 15gc so all of your models should have them. No reason to not have them when you have at least BS 4.

So he charges with only 2 guys? Even if he has T5 and W3 you should be able to outpower him even in melee with your 12 elves. 2 Daggers each should be enough Razz If you don't just break from combat and hit him with 15 arrows. A few of them should wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 21:51

I have played three or four Shadow Elf warbands - one for a good while - and played against them and played along side them. They are more powerful than the official warbands. Their one weakness is that they are what I call a "fragile" warband: because of the cost of their warriors, they will tend to start small and recruits are expensive; accordingly, if they suffer fatalities early in a campaign it takes them forever to recover - and generally leaves them behind the curve compared to more robust warbands. If they make it through the first three or four games in good shape, they generally will dominate.


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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 28 Apr 2011 - 5:15

I have had pretty much the same experience and Mweaver both using them and having them used in a campaign I was in. They suffer from a slow start, but if they can get off the ground then they will be *very* hard to stop.

They have all the skaven strengths of speed and Infiltrate, but without their weakness of low leadership so they can start the game in the best positions, but are almost impossible to make rout. You certainly don't have to be a WAAC player to make them utterly formidable - any halfway competent power-gamer worth their salt should be able to make them very deadly indeed in very short order. Well, unless they are regularly stomped on at the start Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Thu 28 Apr 2011 - 22:45

The evidence is not overwhelming. The general consensus between
practical and theoretical hobbyists alike; unreasonably high
characteristics for unfeasibly low hire fees.

I can't imagine what possessed Lord 0 to make comparisons between Shadow Warriors & Clan Eshin.

All points duly noted for R&D purposes. I'm pretty pleased with the way the Elf Rangers warband list for MiM is performing.

In the meantime, deploy loads more terrain, and remember to pick up a Hired Sword with a pistol plus a Halfling Scout to nail the elven snipers before they get to your Heroes first. Wink

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Werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Are shadow warriors overpowered?   Fri 29 Apr 2011 - 1:17

I like to play them from time to time and play against them, but i think theyre boring with just shooty, escapiley if you go for Weapon Expert and Crossbow with Nimble or Pistols.
But i really like to play them in Melee, with 2 Elves EQ with 2H and Strongman and the skill that allows you to strike in Initiative Order.
And the rest of the Warband goes 2 Hand Weapons.


We just had a small round 4-5 Games today and i rolled escapiley good for my advances, i got some Strength and Attack ups one more W for my leader and my S4 2A Elve became frenzy Very Happy
I equipped everyone with a Spear and 1-2 Swords so i could use my high Initiative to strike first with the Spears and attack with the Swords when i charge by myself.
I also started with 11 Models Wink

My enemies this round was Witch Hunters; no real problm here had some good cover to go through the crossbow fire.
Possesed; He was a bit unlucky i must say and only had 5 Models so i concentrated on the weaker ones and swarmed the big ones.
Last one was Dwarfes; Horrible for both sides we never managed to wound or hit, just some lucky shots or hits turned the battle. But with some better rolls...

Elves are strong yes but they are managable aslong they dont win alot of games in the beginning or dominate. But any Warband will become good this way, Elves maybe just a little bit more.
Ill say its a double edged blade, if you can win youre awesome if you do badly you can almost give up.
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