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ianward09
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PostSubject: shadow warriors   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 14:32

do you think shadow warriors war band is a little over powered ?
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 15:07

no a lot
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Thu 10 Dec 2009 - 16:53

The consensus is that they are pretty much the pinnacle of broken warbands.

This was my attempt at making them more balance, its not perfect, but I think it helps bring them in line abit better.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 6:14

I don't play them someone in our club was saying he may play them i just think they are over powered. That why i asked if anyone else thought the same as me ?
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 7:08

It is pretty well accepted by anyone with any sort of brain that Shadow Warriors are overpowered.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 7:36

is there anywhere we could tone them down and make the fair
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 8:32

They are over powered, the problem is that they don't have a flaw, and shoot really well and cast really well. Their casting also makes them better snipers.

I think that the only way to make them remotely balanced would be to make them more expensive, and give them a flaw. It would take some play testing to figure it out.

One of the "Flaws" I was thinking about was a lower toughness. I always thought that they should have a 2 Toughness. In D&D elves have a weaker Contitution then humans, Orcs, or Dwarves.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 9:00

QUOTE: "[Elves] have deliberately been left off the list as they are, in their current form, entirely inappropriate for Mordheim." - Games Workshop, 'Commentary on Official Warbands' p. 13
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Fri 11 Dec 2009 - 13:38

ianward09 wrote:
is there anywhere we could tone them down and make the fair

See my link in the post above, it might not suit you but I hope its worth a look.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 22:16

Just use one of the human Mercenary lists, and then just try to create elves - emphasis speed and shooting skills, don't use black powder weapons or poison or drugs, take an Elf Ranger, seek out the Elf Items, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 7:45

It depends on the gaming group and the responsibility of the person using them, I think. If the person maxes them out with shooting and movement skills and runs around, its not much fun unless you have incredibly intricate terrain that doesn't leave much room for shooting.

If there's any argument, you can always make an elf force out of mercenaries, and just restrict them to not using poison, drugs, or blackpowder weapons. Bow only forces can be really mobile and if you keep your theme in mind and build their skills and stats accordingly, will quickly start to become elf like. Reiklanders make great shots, and start with BS 4 just like an elf... :3
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 8:52

I think most warbands can become overpowered, it really does depend on how people use them!

I use to play dark elves, which can be if they are totally shootie, but when i played them, i went for more character and charged anyone i could!

how does shadow warriors become over powered?
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 15:59

frog wrote:
I think most warbands can become overpowered, it really does depend on how people use them!

I use to play dark elves, which can be if they are totally shootie, but when i played them, i went for more character and charged anyone i could!

how does shadow warriors become over powered?

Hmm, I kinda think that they become overpowered by writing them down on a roster, and then playing games with them. LOL

Have you seen the starting stats vs. cost?

That being said, in the next couple weeks I will be playing them for a campaign, and I'm looking forward to it. I will most likely be going for a half and half approach instead of all shooty or all melee.

I'm also thinking of seeing if my group wants me to rewrite them so they're more inline with the balanced warbands. It might be considered shooting myself in the foot, but the rewrite won't happen until after I play them.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 16:55

Our current campaign consists of a Khemri warband (mine), a Beastmen Raiders warband, and a Shadow Warriors warband. To date, I can't remember a time yet where the Shadow Warriors have actually even come close to winning so my personal opinion is that the warband itself isn't broken at all.

Perhaps it's simply a case of certain people taking the warband in question and 'munchkin' gaming with it. This should be a term familiar to any old-school gamers out there, and for those who aren't it basically means min-maxing your character/group/warband to eke out every single iota of maximum combat power at the expense of everything else. That being said, in a group where everyone else is NOT going munchkin, any warband could be considered to be OP if done that way. It's my belief at this point that it is not really a question of the warband itself being OP, but merely a matter of the individual players making them that way.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 1:58

The last game I played was Beastmen vs a Shadow Warrior warband. Most of the shadow warriros were sniper types built for stealth and shooting but the scenario meant they still had to come down where we could fight and it was decided by me failing my fourth route test.

The elves had also taken five by that point....

The table we play on (Eldritch games in Exeter) is in a Veimce type style with four large buildings/areas dvided by canals as a cross roads. There are various bridges at ground level but the only real way to move from area to area is at ground level. I think if your table has places the elves can move about freely without coming down then yes they're overpowered but on a more balanced table I don't feel they're any worse than most of the other warbands.


The other issue the campaing proved was that although the Elves start very well equipped if you go for a small warband all with Elven bows etc adding henchmen to groupsd and hiring new heros if they die can be very expensive.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 2:30

sartori wrote:
I'm also thinking of seeing if my group wants me to rewrite them so they're more inline with the balanced warbands. It might be considered shooting myself in the foot, but the rewrite won't happen until after I play them.
Heres my attempt at it, if it helps.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 10:17

dont use elven warbands........ ever
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 11:20

Mortimers shadow warrior warband actually seems like a good alternative. You could even mump the cost up more, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 12:12

I have a quaint idea...use whatever your gaming group is okay with you using.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 12:42

@Sartori: there's an idea Very Happy (yet very dangerous)

@Everyone:
If someone really wants to play an elf (well they need serious counceling for one, but I think this is the wrong venue to get it...) then let him.
Don't get in situations where he can play on his terms and if you are then bide your time and conserve your losses. If your overpowered by them that just means that you still have some stuff to learn.
Get to know your own warband, get to know where you can face them (or anyone for that matter) on equal terms and what avenues of combat that you overpower them.
Even if this isn't warhammer it's still a game of strategy and tactics.
It's not a game of rock paper scissors or that godawfull closest to the wall (although some Ban fascist would probably demand metal and leads were punishable by excecution.)
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 12:50

They are busted if the person playing them turns them into the sniper squad, and you have little of no terrain.

If you have little or no open areas, and the person playing the warband doesn't turn them into the sniper squad then they are still going to be one of your better war bands.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 13:01

If they are little elven automatons then I can see that but poor tactical sensibility can make anyone look good.
Chances are that in your case you have a pretty decent player in your group.
The key for any kind of maintained playability is some type of terrain variation.
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 14:43

MonkeyShaman wrote:
@Sartori: there's an idea Very Happy (yet very dangerous)

It's only dangerous if your group doesn't know what it's getting itself into.

My group has dealt with elves on a couple occasions, and they've never done that great. I will be running them soon, and I can almost guarantee I will do average at best because my dice rolling is ATROCIOUS, and I refuse to play them as nothing but a hit squad of little sniper bastards that are afraid to dance with an opponent. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 17:53

the discussion as to whether elves are broken when not played competitively is moot for the very reason that they are not played competitively
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 1:28

The question from the start was...

ianward09 wrote:
we going to start a campaign but dont know if we should let shadow worriors in as they over powered
what does everybody think should they be let in or not ?

Many think they ARE overpowered, and many (including myself) would still allow them in a game. But, as you will, or will not, realise, is that if a warband is only sniping (for xample) it quickly gets boring.
If it is boring, that doesn't mean the other warband is overpowered, just boring. And THAT is what happens when some equally boring player decides to power-game ("My vampire is totally getting a bow, so he can, like sort of pick enemies, you know, from range, and all, yeah" - Douche bag... Thats not what a Vampire would do!).

Anyway, feel free to try them out, if it doesn't work, then prohibit them or give them some limitations. If it does work, then I see no problem. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: shadow warriors   Today at 15:18

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