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 How to use a Crossbow pistol ?

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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 8:37

I'm quite sure I saw it somewhere, but can we use on the same combat phase a crossbow pistol AND a double-handed weapon ?
It makes sense if the crossbow pistol is not really carried, but fixed on the wrist, and the rule said "this bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks".

Or am I completely messing ?



cianty edit: For convenience, here is the Crossbow Pistol's rule from the Living Rulebook (page 30):

"Shoot in hand-to-hand combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use modelís Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks."
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 8:45

The way I play it, you get the crossbow pistol shot at the start of the combat, and then your normal attacks with any weapons you like. You don't need to account for the crossbow pistol after firing it. Maybe you drop it, or quickly re-holster it before you fight. The game is pretty abstract, after all!
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 9:35

Don't you fire it in the shooting phase when attacking? that way you'd be allegable to use the 2 handed weapon in cc I reckon?

though, with pistols and all that, you do use it in the cc phase, so there you can't use great weapons in that round of cc...
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 9:44

It is probably best to think of the crossbow pistol operating in a similar manner to "stand and shoot" charge reaction in WFB (except that the pistol can also be used while charging of course). The attack is resolved before any blows are struck and has no influence on any weapons used during the actual fight. The bolt is fired and then the weapon is quickly holstered before swords are drawn.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 9:50

So we can shoot with the crossbow pistol and attack with the 2-handed on the same combat phase, combining strike first (really first this time) and strike last. It seems great !

Can someone tell me if there's an FaQ ?
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 11:35

Just another point !!!
Can you use two weapons as well you use two handed sword after firing with your crossbow pistol in the first turn of cc?

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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Wed 4 Nov 2009 - 23:25

Now this is just my opinion and after i post this i might go look up a couple of FAQ's to see if it's addressed, but i think when they say "in addition to any other attacks" they mean you can have a weapon in another hand, as wacky as mord can get that would be stupid OP for a rare 9 wep. why would this pistol get some sort of magic help that a regular pistol doesn't? because it shoots crossbow bolts instead of bullets i call shenanigans.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 0:37

AFKzombie wrote:
why would this pistol get some sort of magic help that a regular pistol doesn't?
Using this logic, why does it use BS when a regular pistol doesn't? Why does it get an extra -2 to hit when a regular pistol doesn't?

Let's also not forget that you're going need BS4 to hit on a 6 on the charge with this. Not something that's likely to make you go for the crossbow pistol option over an off-hand weapon using your interpretation, is it?
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 1:41

oh didn't read the whole -2 to hit and uses BS, i stand corrected. i still find it weird that it works differently than normal pistols, but given the whole unless your BS win you miss on anything but a 6 i find it a little bit easier to swallow. i guess a question that it actualy makes come to mind would you take into account negative mdifiers for moving, or does the already -2 take that into account, because then what if your charged? also how about elven cloaks?
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 2:15

We play that it's -2 plus any other negative modifiers. So, an additional -1 if you've moved, for instance.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 3:51

I think the rules for this weapon are pretty clear... mostly... I copied the relevant special rule into the initial post for reference.


- The crossbow pistol grants a bonus attack before applying normal close combat attacks. So there are the following phases of attacking, all of which are made at Initative order:
1. Crossbow pistol shots
2. First strike
3. Normal attacks
4. Last strike (2-handed weapons)
5. Last strike (models who just got up from being knocked down)

- This bonus attack is still made in hand-to-hand combat (see the rule's name and wording) and although it uses BS instead of WS it technically is an attack made in close combat. I don't see why any of the shooting modifiers should be applied here. It is not a ranged attack made in the shooting phase, irrespective of fluffy assumptions. The -2 modifier already factors in the difficulty of this attack.

- It is not a ranged attack and must be treated as a strike in hand-to-hand combat. An Elven Cloak, however, doesn't protect against missile shots in the shooting phase only. It reads: "A warrior aiming a missile weapon at a warrior wearing an Elven cloak suffers -1 on his to hit roll". So an Elven Cloak should be useful against Crossbow pistol shots made in close combat, as well as pistol shots made in close combat. Crossbow pistols and Pistols are still missile weapons, no matter when exactly they are fired.

- Now what about swords? With this being a bonus attack during hand-to-hand combat, it will trigger on swords. Actually you can read in the FAQ (see Mordheimer) that all pistols can be parried just like close combat weapons. However, since the crossbow shot is made before the normal strikes, there is no highest to hit roll to choose from (unless the attack has a brace of Crossbow Pistols and hits with both). If the shot hits, it should be possible to parry it. However, the opponent should be able to to choose whether he wants to try to parry the shot (and then make no further parry attempts this turn) or whether he wants to wait until the "normal" close combat phase to see if he can parry any of the normal strikes (of course, then there is the danger of not being able to parry any of the normal hits so that the parry opportunity is wasted).

- After making the crossbow pistol's bonus attack you can switch to any configuration of close combat weapons, spear + shield, two single-handed weapons, a double-handed weapon, normal pistol + sword, etc...

- I wouldn't call overpowered for a weapon that imposes a -2 modifer and usually requires the Weapons Expert skill in addition - except for Witch Hunters which are not particularly renowned for being one of the strong warbands.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 4:35

cianty wrote:

- This bonus attack is still made in hand-to-hand combat (see the rule's name and wording) and although it uses BS instead of WS it technically is an attack made in close combat. I don't see why any of the shooting modifiers should be applied here. It is not a ranged attack made in the shooting phase, irrespective of fluffy assumptions. The -2 modifier already factors in the difficulty of this attack.

I don't agree with that. It might happen in close combat, but it is clearly treated as a ranged attack in every other way.

So shooting penalties should apply (in addition to the -2), and the shot cannot be parried (the FAQ is referring to pistols, which are treated as close combat weapons thanks to a bit of schizophrenic game design).
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 4:57

To me the wording (bonus attack in addition to other hand-to-hand attacks) implies that it is a hand-to-hand attack, just like the shots from all other pistols in close combat. It is not written down explicitly anywhere but the various exisiting entries of the FAQ do indicate so ("A pistol is a pistol" -> crossbow pistols, normal pistols, warplock pistols are all treated similarily).

Q: If I attack with a pistol in hand-to-hand combat do I use my WS or BS?
A: WS for all except the crossbow pistol (which uses BS).

This implies that both normal and crossbow pistols are attacks in hand-to-hand combat, albeit the latter using a different stat. This isn't meant to imply that you should use shooting rules for one of them yet not for the other. The BS part is meant to suggest the shot being fired very shortly before the actual combat starts, but that is all.*

The Crossbow Pistol's bonus attack cannot be considered a normal ranged shot. If you were going to insist on treating it as a normal ranged shot, applying Movement and Cover penalties, then you would have to be consistent and forbid it altogether since you cannot shoot into combat anyways (as you could harm your own models). Technically it has to be considered a very special hand-to-hand attack as otherwise it just doesn't work. And that is what the rules say by "This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks".

Whatever the interpretations, we will make sure this be clarified in the next Rules Review. Smile


*Because of this I would suggest that the shot cannot be parried as it messes with the current parry rules somewhat (as indicated in my previous post), but per the current rules I think you can very well parry it. Simply because that's how the rules are. Not because it's "logical" or fluffy or anything.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 5:25

Quote :
"Shoot in hand-to-hand combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use modelís Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks."

Emphasis mine. If it's not a shooting attack, why stress that it is? If other factors do not apply, why specify an extra -2 to hit? Extra to what? To me these things, together with the use of the shooter's BS, indicate that it was the author's intention that this should be a special, out-of-sequence shooting attack.

With regards to the ban on shooting into combat, I would argue that this is a exception due to the crossbow pistol's special rules.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 5:32

cianty wrote:
To me the wording (bonus attack in addition to other hand-to-hand attacks) implies that it is a hand-to-hand attack, just like the shots from all other pistols in close combat.

But other pistols are treated exactly as close combat weapons, which is where the confusion arises. The crossbow pistol is clearly used in a manner that more closely resembles the 'stand and shoot' ability found in Warhammer (as someone mentioned earlier).


Quote :
the various exisiting entries of the FAQ do indicate so ("A pistol is a
pistol" -> crossbow pistols, normal pistols, warplock pistols are
all treated similarily).

Again, they are treated similarly in some ways, but not at all similarly in close combat.


Quote :
This implies that both normal and crossbow pistols are attacks in
hand-to-hand combat, albeit the latter using a different stat. This
isn't meant to imply that you should use shooting rules for one of them
yet not for the other. The BS part is meant to suggest the shot being
fired very shortly before the actual combat starts, but that is all.

I can't see how those conclusions are justified. The crossbow pistol doesn't just give you a close combat attack using ballistic skill instead of weaponskill: it has an entirely unique mode of attack. As you say, in fact, it works before actual combat begins.


Quote :
The Crossbow Pistol's bonus attack cannot be considered a normal ranged shot. If you were going to insist on treating it as a normal ranged shot, applying Movement and Cover penalties, then you would have to be consistent and forbid it altogether since you cannot shoot into combat anyways

I don't think so. It works regardless of the general rules, and regardless of the technicalities of the wording, because it's a special case. It works in close combat whether you treat it as a ranged attack or not, because the crossbow pistol rules say it works.

So I can't consider that a meaningful argument.

Quote :
And that is what the rules say by "This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks".

Again, that could be interpreted either way.


Now, I'm not saying that you are wrong about how the crossbow pistol should be treated. I'm saying that the issue cannot be decided by reference to the existing rules... at least, not using any of your arguments.


Personally, I'd like it if there was no movement penalty on the crossbow pistol shot when my witch hunter captain charges! But in the meantime, I have to conclude that there is.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 5:46

Wow, cianty - hornet's nest here. I can see both sides, though.

Didn't the last Rules Review flatten all sources of First Strike into one level? If so, and the Crossbow Pistol's shoot-into-HtH attack is actually resolved during the HtH round, shouldn't it be restricted into the normal First Strike order?

As I see it, the crux is this wording: "...shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat..." and "This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks."

So does this mean either:
1. It is a shooting attack which can be made while in base-to-base contact?
2. It is an attack which can be made during HtH?

The order of attacks you list seems strangely familiar... where I listed it, I did list the Crossbow Pistols in front of everything else, as happening in the Shooting Phase. By your interpretation, I was wrong. However, if it happens in the HtH phase, I again must ask whether the Rules Review changes on First Strike would apply to the Crossbow Pistol.

This seems like a good candidate for a FAQ.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 6:53

I'm quite agree with Cianty, but I understand why you don't play that way, it's a matter of "interpreting" the rules when they are not clear so far... If we had this debate on another forum between french people, I was quite sure we would have it here ('cause it is not a translation problem as usual). We have something to fix there, and we can use our (clever ) brains to do this !

Things debatable :
1 - In which phase can we use the crossbow pistol ? Close combat or Shooting ?
2 - If it's during the Close combat phase, "Shoot first" means "Strike first" or it's before "Strike first" ?
3 - Can we shoot with the crossbow pistol first, and switch on another weapon on the same phase ? Or the hand using the crossbow pistol can't be used anymore during this turn ?
4 - Do other modificators apply, like elven cloak or moving ? Because it's told "extra -2"...
5 - Can we parry the attack ?

If I don't miss something, we have to answer these questions and make a reasonnable conviction
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 7:08

wyldhunt wrote:
Wow, cianty - hornet's nest here. I can see both sides, though.

Yeah... scratch

They all go either way and in the end it depends on the reader's interpretation.

wyldhunt wrote:
Didn't the last Rules Review flatten all sources of First Strike into one level? If so, and the Crossbow Pistol's shoot-into-HtH attack is actually resolved during the HtH round, shouldn't it be restricted into the normal First Strike order?

Yes, it should have dealt with all first strikes. But just like that one Orc spell which allows "always striking first", this one is a special case. In the case of the spell it was easy to contact Mark and see what he thinks, i.e. implement the author's intention and ignore any confusiong parts on the wording (indeed the wording of the spell now collides with the rules as they don't alway strike first anymore). Unfortunately we can't just ask Tuomas to get a definite answer. Sad

wyldhunt wrote:
So does this mean either:
1. It is a shooting attack which can be made while in base-to-base contact?
2. It is an attack which can be made during HtH?

This is indeed the question it all comes down to and there are obviously arguments for both cases.

wyldhunt wrote:
This seems like a good candidate for a FAQ.

Most definately.


For me personally, any arguments relating to shots and shooting in the rules of the Crossbow Pistol do not hold as a proof of treating it as actual shooting, because the rules had to be written like that. You can't say the "Crossbow pistol strikes in close combat". This is a fluff thing and no game term nomenclature. How else would you word the rule "Shoot in Close Combat". "Strike in Close Combat"? You could call it "Attack in Close Combat", but the author didn't. Characterful wording instead of 100% fool proof ruling. As we all know it was all too often assumed that the intention is clear and no endless discussion is required. For me, the case is pretty clear here. But so it is for others - who think the exact opposite.

Considering the inconsistency with parrying and and striking first it would be best to treat the shot as outside of close combat. The easiest fix I can now think of is this: Change the last sentence to read as follows:

"This bonus attack is made in the shooting phase and is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks made in hand-to-hand combat."

I think this answers all questions.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 7:25

Yes, definitely, if you answer shooting phase on the first answer :
1 - shooting phase
2 - no matter
3 - you can't declare you'll loose your crossbow pistol during the combat phase, so no more problem in switching
4 - yes, the modificators must be applied
5 - no, the parry rules is just for close combat phase

Clear, thanks a lot !
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 7:49

We will add this to our list, there have been many different ways to interpret it.

We actually had it hammered out on the last SG forum and it was spelled out but that is gone and we did not save it (Hits self with newspaper).


We will tackle this one shortly. I have my view on it but I will wait to see what my cohorts view on the matter plus we will take what everyone said on this thread. As always we will do our best and I will reach out to those other shadowy people and check out some of the old FAQs (I believe there was a xbow pistol one).
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 8:11

cianty wrote:
The easiest fix I can now think of is this: Change the last sentence to read as follows:

"This bonus attack is made in the shooting phase and is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks made in hand-to-hand combat."

That would make things clearer, except that it's a little unusual to be able to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase!
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 9:00

meerkat wrote:
cianty wrote:
The easiest fix I can now think of is this: Change the last sentence to read as follows:

"This bonus attack is made in the shooting phase and is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks made in hand-to-hand combat."

That would make things clearer, except that it's a little unusual to be able to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase!

LOL. Totally! I hadn't thought of that. Embarassed

Now it doesn't look like that much of an elegant solution anymore... Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 9:15

i think i would just agree with cainty said earlier, and that it is merely a special close combat attack taken out of turn, before any blows have been struck. after shooting with it (based upon the negative modifiers to hit already included) it may be dropped, holstered, banished to a different dimension, ect. and combat ensues as normal. as far as parrying is concerned, i'm not 100% sure where i stand, since it takes place in the HtH phase (imo) i wanna say yes because you could have a very high BS character just aceing people before they get a chance to strike. as for negative modifiers i guess since it's a CC attack then you wouldn't have to factor in movement penalties, cover, or large targets; however elven cloaks give a -1 simply for the fact that it's a missle weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use a Crossbow pistol ?   Thu 5 Nov 2009 - 16:58

cianty wrote:
meerkat wrote:
cianty wrote:
The easiest fix I can now think of is this: Change the last sentence to read as follows:

"This bonus attack is made in the shooting phase and is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks made in hand-to-hand combat."

That would make things clearer, except that it's a little unusual to be able to shoot in your opponent's shooting phase!

LOL. Totally! I hadn't thought of that.

Now it doesn't look like that much of an elegant solution anymore...

It might be a little unusual, but it still stands up better to all the wierd permutaions than the other interpretations, IMHO. WHFB's Stand and Shoot effectively does the same thing, except - isn't that actually handled immediately in the Movement phase? So allowing Crossbow Pistol's Shoot into HtH to go off during the opponent's Shooting Phase still seems one of the two simplest ways to resolve this*.

*The other being to allow the shot during HtH, but along with other Strike First attacks.
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