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Benkei
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PostSubject: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 1:05

Another question for you guys:

- Dark Venom gives +1 S to the weapon coated in it... it is only for CC weapons? as the Imperial Assassin has all his weapons coated in venom, does that include his throwing knives and crossbow pistol? i assume it does, as poisoned bolts are not a stretch
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 1:36

poison can't be added to black powder weapons. It says nowhere that you cant poison bolts and arrows Smile
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Lord 0
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 1:37

In my circle we allow ranged weapons that aren't black-powder to be poisoned. I couldn't tell you how much of that is real rule and how much is house-rule though.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 2:35

Stronzo wrote:
poison can't be added to black powder weapons. It says nowhere that you cant poison bolts and arrows Smile

...Really? Oh god! I have been playing since the game's release and never thought to do this!

Poisoned crossbows?...My witch hunter warband just got more interesting xD
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 3:08

Uhm... Witch Hunters cant buy poison :/ sadly.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 3:46

Stronzo wrote:
Uhm... Witch Hunters cant buy poison :/ sadly.

Oh yeah...ah well the dream was short lived xD Need to get some "Holy Bolts" or something since it always bugged me that there was no way of upgrading a crossbow for witch hunter heroes...not that they desperately need it ofc but it would be nice none the less ^^ -shrug-
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 3:49

Quote :
In my circle we allow ranged weapons that aren't black-powder to be poisoned. I couldn't tell you how much of that is real rule and how much is house-rule though.
It's rulebook legal.
Quote :
Uhm... Witch Hunters cant buy poison :/ sadly.
Yes, they can. They just need zealot/flagellant hero - they are not restricted at buing piosons. Witch huters and warrior priest are not allowed to BUY poisons - however rulebook or their warband rules doesn't state that they CAN'T use it (like shadow warriors).
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 5:04

Actually, it says it is not available to them, pg. 104:
Quote :
Not available to Witch Hunters, Warrior-Priests or
Sisters of Sigmar.
Now there is good argueing about what "available" means. The same way, blessed water "May not be bought by Undead". By your logic, ghoul heroes and necroes could buy the stuff and the vampire could then use it...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 5:30

Uhm... Are we sure we wanna go there? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 7:01

Quote :
Now there is good argueing about what "available" means. The same way, blessed water "May not be bought by Undead". By your logic, ghoul heroes and necroes could buy the stuff and the vampire could then use it...
It is legal to do. Of course your example is extreme but blame rules not me. Smile At least poison using witch hunters are background acceptable (if not true to their background).
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 8:20

the rulebook is full of holes like this
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 8:46

Quote :
Now there is good argueing about what "available" means. The same way, blessed water "May not be bought by Undead". By your logic, ghoul heroes and necroes could buy the stuff and the vampire could then use it...

I can already imagine two vampires throwing at each other balloons with holy water, bought by their faithful dregs Laughing

I think such items are unavailable to WH for some specific reason - though rules are badly written.

Besides I wonder what might be the fluff reason for such "unavailability"? Other than WH being unable to use poisons that is. If a WH has access to drugs (crimson shade, mad cap shromies), why is suddenly poison explicitly unavailable? Mordheim merchants suddenly became shy? May be that in fluff WH (some of them at least, I bet many of the "puritans" do not) use poisons, but using fluff as an argument in such discussions can lead nowhere - fluff based home made warbands can be an example, as they descend into "awesomeness" more often than not.


With this logic a witch hunter can easily use magic tome (bought by a zealot hero, or found during exploration) and become a wizard - He would hate himself so much after that Smile



So what would it be:
Can they use poisons?
Can they use magic tome?
Both?
Neither?

I vote for neither - imagine, a WH with minor magic spells, sounds... radical... almost heretical Twisted Evil

In my opinion a zealot/flagellant hero is the only potential poison "user" in the WH warband, though it still is kind of silly to me, as they could buy and use the magic tome
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:08

Code:
Sibbechai’s corrupt visage contorted into a mask of scorn and contempt. “More sorcery,
Helmuth?” the vampire hissed. “Is there no limit to your hypocrisy?”
The witch hunter captain continued to mumble his conjurations, allowing the zombie monsters
to shuffle and shamble their way between himself and his undead enemy. “The tools of your
loathsome kind can be made to serve the cause of Light,” Helmuth Klausner snarled. “By such
perversions is this great land threatened and by such perversions shall every last witch and wizard be
driven from the Empire!”
The vampire paid only partial attention to the witch hunter’s words, watching as the zombie
creatures of the madman closed in upon it. The monster’s face twisted with wry amusement. “Is this
the best you can do?” Sibbechai laughed. “I find your efforts insulting.”
Sibbechai launched its lean form forward, the vampire’s clawed hands lashing out, tearing the
head from the shoulders of the nearest zombie as easily as a child pulling wings from a fly. The
necrarch snarled a word of power and the next zombie toppled, crumbling into dust before it even
finished falling to the blood-soaked cobbles. Sibbechai spun about, gesturing with its clawed hand,
sending another blast of dark magic searing into a pair of the shuffling corpses, the unholy power
turning both cadaver-things into walking torches.
The vampire was spinning about to smash its way through the last of Helmuth’s zombies when
sharp, blinding pain surged through its body. The vampire stared down with revulsion as a pustulent
mass spread across its chest, a green morass of goo alive with maggots and filth. The vampire ripped
the robe from its withered body, hurling the tainted garment into the face of an approaching zombie,
the creature shambling onward a few moments before the writhing corruption ate through its skull
and consumed its festering brain.
Helmuth Klausner snarled as he saw the vampire’s inhumanly quick reflexes react to the
pestilential spell the witch hunter had directed at it. Klausner had travelled far to uncover and
destroy the corrupted festival, had nearly been killed by the loathsome and bloated priest of Nurgle
who had acted as the carnival’s master. He had done so because he had imagined that the spellcraft
of such a sorcerer might prove of great use against the restless dead. Fortunately, there was more
than one way to burn a bat.
The witch hunter pulled his heavy blackpowder pistol from its holster of blackened leather. The
vampire saw the man’s reaction, the undead abomination not even deigning to consider such a crude
device any threat. Sibbechai ripped through another pair of zombies, finding its path to Helmuth
unhindered.
Helmuth returned the corpse-thing’s stare, the fanatic zeal in his veins countering the aura of
supernatural malice exuding from the vampire’s eyes. With calm deliberation, Helmuth lifted the
pistol, whispering the slithering words he had extracted from the mangled body of a wizard in
Averheim, the words of an ancient and pre-human spell of guiding. The pistol cracked and roared as
Helmuth depressed the trigger, foul black powder smoke blowing back into his face and causing his
eyes to tear.
The vampire darted aside as the witch hunter’s crude weapon fired. It had fought many men who
employed the smelly, unreliable firearms before and had learned that even on the rare occasions
when their bullets did strike, they could do the monster no lasting harm.
But Sibbechai had not reckoned upon the sorcerous augmentation of the witch hunter’s
marksmanship, nor the uniqueness of the shot he had loaded into his weapon. The golden ball
smashed into the vampire’s shoulder, spinning the necrarch around and slamming it to the ground.
Sibbechai snarled in agony and disbelief as it tried to lift itself from the broken cobbles.
A strange paralysis seemed to spread from its injury, making even its wasted limbs seem as
heavy as stone. The witch hunter laughed, slipping his smoking weapon back into its holster.
“Surprised, monster?” he sneered down at the struggling vampire. “I’ve learned a few new tricks
since last our paths crossed.”


Last edited by catachanfrog on Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:33; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:13

Alrightie, so what are you trying to say is...

That vampires are not immune to poison? Laughing ups -that was magic, my bad Smile

Yes, yes, there are stories about WH using poisons [and magic]Rolling Eyes , so there are stories about orcs trotting around in heavy armor. Your point is?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:17

Aureus wrote:
Alrightie, so what are you trying to say is...

That vampires are not immune to poison? Laughing ups -that was magic, my bad Smile

Yes, yes, there are stories about WH using poisons [and magic]Rolling Eyes , so there are stories about orcs trotting around in heavy armor. Your point is?

There are also stories of witch hunters reading necromancers tomes xD

IMO fluff/short stories should never be considered when regarding rule changes or even clarification. ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:31

It's from Mathias Thumnann and - funny thing - this retrospection takes place in Mordheim Razz I just made an effort to show you that:
a) I know background better than you Cool
b) that witch hunter just used magic Very Happy

Oh and considering rules, witch hunter can't use tome of magic, cause:

Quote :
Arcane Lore. Witch Hunters, Sisters of Sigmar and
Warrior-Priests may not have this skill. Any warrior
with this skill may learn Lesser Magic if he owns a
Tome of Magic
.
Read rules properly.
But they can USE poisons. There is nothing "radical" or heretical about poisons. And my opinion is that people not interested in background should play chess instead of mordheim. Twisted Evil

P.S And there may be stories about h.armor orcs but you can't use it cause mordheim rules says that Razz


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:31

TheEnemyWithin wrote:

IMO fluff/short stories should never be considered when regarding rule changes or even clarification. ^^

I Agree.

Fluff is important, especially as an inspiration, but using it could lead to somewhat peculiar ideas. Helmuth Klausner might have used magic, doesn't mean that your average WH warband should too.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:35

Read my post above and consider your unwise comment. bounce I never said, they can use magic (although zealot could - remember? you told me a coupe days ago about yuour idea of "hidden necromancer" in rpg Razz ).
Quote :
IMO fluff/short stories should never be considered when regarding rule changes or even clarification.
With this I agree too cause it's impossible.
On the other hand I don't like when people tell me that poison-using witch hunter is against the fluff and then when they need an argument, that rules are one thing and background anther...


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:43

catachanfrog wrote:
It's from Mathias Thumnann and - funny thing - this retrospection takes place in Mordheim Razz I just made an effort to show you that:
a) I know background better than you Cool
b) that witch hunter just used magic Very Happy

Yay, all hail the Loremaster, for his is the power of fluff Razz

catachanfrog wrote:

Oh and considering rules, witch hunter can't use tome of magic, cause:

Arcane Lore. Witch Hunters, Sisters of Sigmar and
Warrior-Priests may not have this skill. Any warrior
with this skill may learn Lesser Magic if he owns a
Tome of Magic
.

But a zealot/flagellant hero can take that skill and become hated wizard Smile

catachanfrog wrote:

But they can USE poisons. There is nothing "radical" or heretical about poisons. And my opinion is that people not interested in background should play chess instead of mordheim. Twisted Evil

So why they cant buy it? They can buy drugs (and drugs are bad, mmmm'kay), why not poisons then - hard to find fluffy explanation for that. Just admit that M creators overlooked that, among many other things.

catachanfrog wrote:
P.S And there may be stories about h.armor orcs but you can't use it cause mordheim rules says that Razz

So, WH should use poisons because its fluffy, but orcs cannot wear heavy armor because rules say they can't? Oh, I've heard that one before Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:47

catachanfrog wrote:
Read my post above and consider your unwise comment. bounce I never said, they can use magic (although zealot could - remember? you told me a coupe days ago about yuour idea of "hidden necromancer" in rpg Razz ).

And so there could be a hidden witch hunter in undead warband. What does RPG has to do with Mordheim?

Or a hidden kislevite bear disguised as a particularly hairy middenheimer Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 9:53

Quote :

And so there could be a hidden witch hunter in undead warband. What does RPG has to do with Mordheim?

Or a hidden kislevite bear disguised as a particularly hairy middenheimer Very Happy

Just an idea of "hidden wizard" - I hope you don't have a problem with this analogy? And well, witch hunters can practically have a wizard, undead cannot have witch hunter (by the ules) and kislevites can do with thei bear whatever they want!

Quote :
Just admit that M creators overlooked that, among many other things.
I agree.
Quote :

So, WH should use poisons because its fluffy, but orcs cannot wear heavy armor because rules say they can't? Oh, I've heard that one before Wink
I'm saying again, that they (watch out):
-------------------------------Can use poisons-------------------------------
not should. It's a possibility allowed by rules. end


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 10:01

catachanfrog wrote:

Just an idea of "hidden wizard" - I hope you don't have a problem with this analogy? And well, witch hunters can practically have a wizard, undead cannot have witch hunter (by the ules) and kislevites can do with thei bear whatever they want!

Well, that would be a hidden wizard casting silver arrows of arha, or flying around on the battlefield. Nothing bad with the idea, but its better suited for RPG (and I meant a WH disguised as an vampire follower in RPG - to investigate and find its weak points, or for some other purpose, why not)

So, should such zealot be caught using magic (casting in plain sight of a WH hero), would he be burnt at stake and removed from the rooster?

And still, WH are simply not meant to use poisons ( not that it would save them, Twisted Evil ) in Mordheim, you know that. It is overloked by the rules. Like other silly things (flagellant bs advance).
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 10:10

I think that poisons are waste of money and you won't see me buing one unless I find them on exploration chart. And if that happens I have no rules limitation to use them. that's all.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 10:17

catachanfrog wrote:
I think that poisons are waste of money and you won't see me buing one unless I find them on exploration chart. And if that happens I have no rules limitation to use them. that's all.

Fine by me.
Not that I consider such "exploit" to be gamebreaking or anything, though poisons (on a crossbow, maybe) would be good against T4 enemies Wink

Ah, nothing like a good argument Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Venom and Crossbow Pistol   Tue 24 Apr 2012 - 10:19

ehm....Did we just killed the thread? albino
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