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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 15:12

I think that you should both be able to use a duelling pistol and a sword, which means most people could get it through just weapons expert, but some need the weapons training too.
As pistol expert gives you access to all pistols it off course give you access to this even though you cannot use a normal sword.
(even though it is a bit odd, I imagine the situation where the warrior examines the sword pistol, "how does this work? It has a blade, and a pipe, and a handle?" Engineer: "Here's the trigger." Warrior: "aaah"pirat )
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 20:40

Even better when explained to an orc.

Orc Boy: Wah?
Engun'ear: Stab. Point. Go boom.
Orc: Oh. Roight.

But I can add that to the rules, if you want. "It are able to take Duelling and Sword, may use without skills"? That sound right?
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 6:43

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
As most warriors can use swords they only need one skill for it, while mercs can get it without skills.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 20:10

So I've captured a goblin swabbie. I assume his goblin stats would be crappy enough for a swab. Would he have joined the crew if I'd beaten his Ld roll? He's a stubborn little blighter...

What about orcs?
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 1:43

From the Goblin's perspective, his new position as a Swabby is MOST DEFINITELY an improvement; at least he won't be considered as a meal in lean times Suspect . If anything his Ld, which is THE shortcoming of all Goblins, should improve. Deaf Nala Smiley

A possible Recruit:
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 7:27

He's a great little git! I hope to use the monkey if I can ever keep the lads alive long enough to fill out the crew. My little goblin swab is going to be lucky to get daggers to fight with. pirat

And by the by would he suffer from animosity still? On a 1 he attacks other swabs(!) lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 18:48

Monkeys would follow the same stats as Dogs unless you redid them.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 4 Apr 2009 - 19:21

Yeah there's a special pirates only Monkey on one of these pages from Styrofoamking.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sun 5 Apr 2009 - 19:17

Er, What warband are you again?

Goblin Swabbies: If you capture a Goblin and he willingly joins, he becomes a Crew (normal stats, whatever your warband is... if Ghosts, he's a Cursed.) If he becomes a swabbie, you can either make him a Normal Swabbie (whatever it is for your warband), or you can use the Goblin Swabbie optional rules presented in the 'Swabbie' section of the first pdf. Likewise, if you were an Orc Boss who learned the Pirate Skill 'Novice Pressganger', any unwilling members of the crew become Goblin Swabbies, any willing member becomes an Orc Warrior.

If you are pressganging an Orc, he follows the same rules/stats as a human as *I* have written, but if your group agrees, I can see it modified to use the Goblin Swabbie stat line, or given +1 Toughness, like an Orc (if he is T4, he'd gain Animosity, which he otherwise wouldn't have.)
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sun 5 Apr 2009 - 21:44

Dude.
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/battle-reports-and-fluff-f11/pirates-of-sartosa-the-venerable-mordheim-campaign-photos-t1577.htm

So my Estalians captured a goblin last week. The pdf 1 that I can download does not include either a goblin or orc as a swabbie. The Goblin Swabbie hired sword is actually better than a regular goblin (WS 3) as for his Ld it depends.
My pdf 1 doesn't have a section of optional swabbie rules. Nor does the one I just downloaded.

It would be cool to have non-humans like orcs, goblins, dwarfs or elves join a pirate band as the swabbie or 'crew' version of an orc, goblin, dwarf or elf. To have a human join an non-human band in a like manner would also be sweet.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Wed 8 Apr 2009 - 21:36

I never did that? Shoot! My bad. Well, you have a few options for goblins:

1. Use the Goblin rules as are - (gain exp, kill them if you roll TLGT)
2. Use the Swabbie Rules as they are (not TOO far off from the Goblin stats)
3. Use the Goblin Swabbie rules (WS3), but suffer Animosity
4. Write your own!

If you did capture an Orc, he'd follow rule 2 or 4, or you could make a Swabbie with T4 that suffers Animosity.

The rules, according to the letter of the law, has your swabbies fit the race of the captors; Dwarf swabbies are tougher and slower, elves are faster and less Ld. In essence, the slave drivers force the swabbie to fit the mold of what they consider to be ideal. Of course, if your warband wants to make it so every swabbie has his race stuck as is, I say go for it! Sounds fun! (Just make to shuffle stat points around, so that for every increase it gets, something else goes down. See the Rule 1 PDF for examples.) *

* I would NOT recommend that this applies to Zombie Bloated. With I1, Causes Fear, immune to psych, and unable to run, they play a LOT different than most other swabbies. I don't recommend toying with them too much, in case they break.


On a completely different note, it seems I may have to retire the Ghost Pirate Warband I've been playing. Last meeting, I lost a Screaming Ghost and a Gibbet. This game, I lost my Ghost Captain, a Gibbet, a Cursed, and a Bloated (oh, and my Skeleton Mate fought a Pit Fighter, lost, and got robbed.) So, my mighty warband is reduced to 5 warriors, with 40gc to replace lost people. Yeep.

I might go with Pirates of the Cathayan Sea, or go with the Slayer Pirates (neither of which has been playtested much so far.) Kyaah!
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Thu 9 Apr 2009 - 20:09

My condolences on the Ghost Pirates. They seem to be suffering all over the Great Ocean this month. Playtable got cut up by the Lustrian Treasure ship this week after being brutalized by the Sartosans last week... I'll stop whining about them being overpowered.
Very Happy

The goblin swabbie was killed by Maria in a Mutiny. His first game... Poor little git.
Thanks for the reply. Check us out over in Battle Reports and Fluff some time.

pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 11 Apr 2009 - 22:23

Mutiny.
Not my favorite scenario. Its definitely flavorful and fluffy and all that, but as written it is hard to include in a campaign.

Pros
--can cut up an enemy warband pretty good in a similar way to Surprise Attack or Ambush.

Cons
--that cut up warband may be you, even if you are getting an underdog bonus for the fight or would have. Do you?
--potentially low income to damage ratio. Lots of warriors must go OOA so the income potential is really low for both players. Lots of warriors must go OOA so the butcher's bill could be high.
--little benefit besides messing with an enemy for attacker. If an attacking model must participate in the battle to gain experience then you are SOL if your opponent balances the forces through the random rolls. I assumed that the leadership tests were on the model's lead not the leader's (correct?)

If models are taken OOA who can gain Swabs? Can the non-participating but running the mutineers player's warband recruit if it didn't actually have models involved?

I enjoyed the mutiny from a fluff perspective since my new leader has been waiting for all the original heroes to challenge his rise from the ranks, but I didn't read the scenario rules very carefully so I routed at 2 models out of 5. One of those was a Swab so I really only had 4 models that counted so I should have hung on to lose 3 out of 5. Yuck.

Also I just assumed that the Low warband would get to determine attacker and defender roles. Since my opponent was looking forward to getting +2 underdog bonus from me having to fight his own warriors would have been much less fun for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sun 12 Apr 2009 - 21:21

Underdog: I think you'd have to recalculate, based on the two sides.

Sorry you didn't have fun with it. I was worried about that, but we have yet to roll it in my group, so I didn't have a chance to try it out myself. What if, instead of facing 'actual' members of your warband, it faced other 'members' of your crew (that always stay on the ship), and our thus dopplegangers? Maybe the enemy heroes show up, but are armed with Henchmen that mirror your own? Seem better?

Although, one of the concepts I brushed on in Mutiny (but never got a real chance to explore) was the idea of a Hero in your warband taking over the role of leader. What if there was some rule about having a hero of your choice attempt to become the leader? (I don't know about you, but I've had Heroes with two or three points of Ld higher than the actual leader.) Maybe it results in a 'Mutiny' scenario, with your Leader on the opposite side, while your upstart hero (under your control) leads his force.

Depending on which side wins, that hero remains/becomes the warband leader. Roll 1D6 for the loser:

1 - Is stripped of his possessions. Remove his items, and give them to the REAL leader of the warband. Any item he gains this way cannot be given back to the original owner EVER. Anything he cannot use is sold off. The loser also receives the whipping of his life, and must miss next game.
2-3 The loser is whipped brutally, and misses next game.
4-5 The loser is emotional sore. He participates next battle, but cannot use the leader's leadership for the next 1D3 games.
6 - the loser acknowledges openly that the new leader is far more capable man! He passes on a word of advice, and the new leader gains +1 Experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sun 12 Apr 2009 - 22:42

I didn't say I didn't have fun. I said I didn't play the scenario as written because I made assumptions about how I thought it was written. I also said that I thought that it would not be fun if played as written.

The scenario is outside the norm of Mordheim scenarios in that the attacker has no stake in the outcome beyond hoping that 1) his models somehow get to participate or 2)the heroes he controls survive so that he gains some income.

Basically as written this is not a scenario you want to roll. Either you will receive little income and little or no experience or you will get your warband messed up by itself.

As I played it we both got experience and both got a reasonable income from the scenario, I gave his warband the experience they would have got from surviving a game against me and I kept the heroes in the game by routing after 25% of my supporters were down.

I have no problem with a temporary leader for D3 games. I get Blind, Stupid Emilio for 2 more games.

My method for handling the hero with equal or higher leadership than the Leader is outlined in my March 10 post on the Pirates of Sartosa thread and in the story "The Duel."
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 13 Apr 2009 - 4:17

Von Kurst is excellent are "touching" up scenarios after playing two years in his campaigns I saw how scenarios should be looked at and etc. His speciality is in Lustria and Khemri scenario, you know exotic locales. Thus these scenarios for Saratosa are right up his alley.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 13 Apr 2009 - 18:38

Is true. Cool

Styrofoamking--I like your idea of a single hero mutinying with the support of the other warband. Maybe they may only have as many heroes and henchmen (including the Mutineer) as the Defender's depleted warband.

I would rather the Mutineer be chosen randomly and the change in command be temporary.

So a warband with 6 heroes and 6 henchmen suffers a mutiny. The attacker may only field 5 heroes (one of whom is the Mutineer) and 6 henchmen or hired swords. I wouldn't restrict the game beyond that.

I would like a scenario that stayed closer to normal play. Thus both players have models on the table and have a stake in the outcome of the game. Normal rules can be applied without much head scratching. (or hair pulling)

My players and I think most players have limited game time. A game that doesn't involve their warband will be seen as a waste of that time.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 13 Apr 2009 - 19:02

Hmm. So, you suggest the only difference be the one 'mutinous' hero switching over the the otherside? (If so, the attacking warband has one less hero to field. the defender gains +1 Exploration, while the attacker may gain an Exploration dice for the rogue hero.)

That sound good? Or should we go with the attacker fielding his heroes, but not his henchmen?
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Mon 13 Apr 2009 - 19:54

If the Attacker fielded only heroes would you split the henchmen as written?

I am trying to nudge you toward a more mainstream scenario construction. It still includes the twist of the rogue hero trying to take control of his crew and it limits the participation of the Attacker a little.

If I had played the purposed scenario, my opponent would have had to chose among his 4 heroes to equal my 4 loyal heroes and he would have been outnumbered by my 5 henchmen to his 3. But he would have gotten to use his own warband plus one of my heroes and he could have chosen to attack at night to negate my superior missile weapons.

If I had attacked him I could have fielded only 2 of my heroes because he would have only had 3 left and I would have been restricted to 3 henchmen to equal his warband size. Either possibility sounds like a challenging game for both of us, which is my goal.

All this said we will be in Sartosa next week so a Mutiny will not come up. We have some time to contemplate the issues at our leisure.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Tue 14 Apr 2009 - 8:55

Cool. Here's what I hope to achieve with Mutiny:

~To have the warband lose control (or seemingly lose control) of their own crew.
~To Give the attacker a chance to play a warband with a different feel (or integrate the mutinying warband with their own.)
~To put the leadership of the warband temporarily or permanently or the line (proving that a game can actually have something at stake other than lives and money... I love twisting the social norms.)
~To put a slight advantage to the attacker (hence the rule 'if you've suffered more mutinies than your opponent, then you are automatically the attack)

So how's this:
1. the Attacker chooses and controls a random hero from your warband (this can be the leader- in this case, the defender may pick a new hero to be his Leader, and the Attacker will use the Stolen leader as his Leader.)
2. The Attacker now adds randomly choosen heroes from his own warband, up to the number of remaining heroes the defender has. (Ex. The defender is a Dwarf Slayer pirate. He has 1 of his five heroes mutinying. He is now down to 4 heroes. The Attacker has the 1 stolen hero, and adds 3 random heroes from his own warband, so he has an equal number as the defender.)
3. The Defender fields all of his Henchmen like normal.
4. The Attacker gains a doppleganger crew of henchmen (representing the other members of the ship, who are always left on the boat.) They are identical in numbers, stats & equipment to the Defender's Henchmen.

OR, As an alternative:

4b: The defender fields his henchmen as normal. If the number of henchmen the defender owns is equal or less than the attacker's henchmen, then the attack fields as many henchmen as the defender owns. If the defender has MORE henchmen than the defender, he may field dopplegangers of the defender's henchmen (with the same stats and equipment as the defender) until there is an equal number of henchmen on both sides. If the defender has a Large model, you may not copy it if your warband is already fielding a Large henchmen model this game (i.e. If your opponent has an Ogre Henchmen, you cannot copy his Ogre henchmen and field your Rat Ogre in the same game.)

OR The simple version:

4c: The attacker gains 1D6 models, that are dopplegangers. If the defender doesn't route within 7 turns, the defender wins.

5. Any of the defender's hired swords are divided randomly to the two players. If their is an odd number of Hired Swords, the Defender gains the odd numbered Hired Sword.
6. Recalculate the warband for new underdog bonuses.
6b. No more 'rout' at half warband, but rout as normal.


POST-GAME
6. Both warbands receive +1 Exploration dice, in addition to the number of Exploration dice they gain from Heroes not taken out of action. If not taken out of action, the Attacker receives an Exploration dice from the 'stolen' hero. He may look for items, in which case, he is assumed to to be able to access the normal items that the Attacker could normal access. The defender may look for items with the non-injured models he controlled during the game.
7. After the game, the Stolen hero returns to his original warband unscathed (unless he was injured in the battle as normal... if so, roll on the Serious Injury chart.)
8. If the Defender's traditional leader was on the winning side, then he retains his leadership. If the Defender won and the Leader was the stolen hero on the defender side, then the temporary leader you picked becomes the new leader for your next 1D3 games. If the Attacker won, the Stolen Hero becomes the leader for the next 1D3 games.
9. Both the Defender and the Attacker may recruit Swabbies, regardless if their Leader was on the board this game (assuming that they are Pirate/Navy warbands, and could recruit them normally). Bonuses from 'Veteran Pressganger" are only applied if your Leader fought on your own side.
10. Any Hired Swords that joined the Attacking player do not demand Upkeep cost... they are ashamed of their greedy actions, and forsake it. If the hired sword has an ability that affects the Post Game phase, it may be used by the Defender.

If we go with 4a, the only models the attacker fields from his own warband are 2-4 heroes, but that's where most of the campaign building comes from. Also, the defender is only fighting one true member of his warband, so the loss is stemmed slightly.

Your thoughts, Von? Master?
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Wed 15 Apr 2009 - 20:06

I was shocked with the leader joining the attacker! Then I found it kind of interesting. Now I kind of like it. Good twist!

I think your ideas are all good ones. I'm not convinced that they are playable yet.

Warband rating calculations are usually something we have to browbeat folks into to doing in the first place. To have to do it over again within a scenario...
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Thu 16 Apr 2009 - 6:18

Playable?: Understandable. It is kinda breaking from the normal Mord formula, which is not easy to balance. If it can be done, though, and still be enjoyable to both sides, it'd definitely be a welcome change from 'yet another skirmish/wyrdstone hunt'. Rattle some (gibbet) cages!

Warband ratings- just feed them the simple lie 'hmm. you might be getting an underdog bonus this game.' They'll be whipping out their calculators & cell phones in seconds.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Thu 16 Apr 2009 - 7:21

Heh, I like that the leader can join the attacker.
He just decides that all the crew is too mutinous and decides to teach them all a lesson, bad-ass! pirat

However,
I think the change of leader should be permanent.
What's to prevent the attacking player from playing completely suicidal with their "stolen" hero? Why wouldn't this hero and the hired swords joining him just run headlong into the enemy warband, hope to get as injured as possible, and then the attacking warband routs for some easy exploration/experience, even a possible underdog bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Thu 16 Apr 2009 - 14:54

Well, that is quite possible, of course. However, I'm glad that I thought ahead and added a clause saying 'cannot perform actions that he wouldn't do himself," i.e. run off a 2" cliff. So while he may go 'suicidal' the hard way, he can't go COMPLETELY off the wall. If it seems like a tough issue, we can make the extra +1 exploration only apply if you didn't voluntarily rout.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Sat 25 Apr 2009 - 8:02

New subject: Raft Race.

We are the literal group. The rule/paragraph that is headed Rough Seas, what does it mean?

"The water is this scenario is particularly unfriendly, and all models wanted to travel through it are at 1/4 movement."

Are you referring to swimming models? The rafts? Naturally, one player claimed that "all models" clearly meant "all models" on the table not just warriors or animals.

This sentence plus poor terrain choices on the part of the players made for a sad play test. I missed the discussion of this setting but what is the rationale for not using the Lustria/Empire in Flames swimming rules at least for this scenario?

Mutiny update--now that everyone has read the original scenario its been voted off the island until its re-written.
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PostSubject: Re: Sartosa   Today at 4:34

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