Good Afternoon,

Bonjourno,

I have joined up as my local club (Central Belt of Scotland area) has decided to try running Mordheim, first as individual battles using the system hidden at the back of the rulebook and secondly moving on to the campaigns once we all have an idea.

So while I am here perhaps I can run a little list past you experienced lot, see what you think. It is for a Shadow Warriors group (can't stand Elves but the are about the best ranged force and I have a friend with some spare models to sell) and it is trying to avoid all of the silliness I have seen in the book from a quick read through.

It is for a one off game using 1000gc and limiting to only what is in your Warband list, no Hiring and allowing stat changes within racial maximums.

So here it is, anything really missing or is this first time lucky on a half decent list?:

Shadow Master, +2BS, +2W, +1LD, +1A, Elf Bow, Sword, Free Dagger, Quick Shot: 275
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
5 Shadow Warriors, Longbow, Pair of Daggers: 260
1 Shadow Warrior, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 60

Total: 1000gc
Models: 10 (4 Heroes)

It even has a little backstory for those interested. It is meant as a sort of Elf dignitary by day, ranged assassins by night band, focussing on using arrows and speed to overcome a lack of protection and combat prowess. It is meant as a kind of 'away from the norm' when it comes to Elves, this lot being more open to trade with others but not afraid of using skill and striking from the shadows to get what they want either.

As for the look of the models I am going for the Archer set of Elves as it features little in the way of armour and could pass for a group of non-combatants, more a nobles hunting party etc.

And just to say if you got this far, thanks for reading.

'FireKnife'

FireKnife wrote:

Shadow Master, +2BS, +2W, +1LD, +1A, Elf Bow, Sword, Free Dagger, Quick Shot: 275
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
Shadow Walker, +2BS, +1W, +1LD, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 135
5 Shadow Warriors, Longbow, Pair of Daggers: 260
1 Shadow Warrior, Longbow, Sword, Free Dagger: 60

Bonjourno FireKnife and welcome to the forum!

It looks like a fine point to start, but I do have some suggestions. I am not all too familiar with this warband, as it is banned practically everywhere I know, but I have some general comments as well as some specific. I have also played with the Asrai Warfarers (Wood Elves), so I know a bit about it.

Let's start with the Leadership increases:

I am a bit confused why Ld increases have been picked for all your warriors. With all that spent, I'd almost just go for a Standard of Nagarythe instead (giving it to the leader would give you 10 Leadership anyway). But really, you should just be giving your leader a single Ld increase imo.; the rest won't need it.

And we will continue with the Elf Bow:

Usually an Elf Bow is much cheaper, but I suppose this is due to the rarity. I'd argue, that unless you play against for instance Dwarves or Beastmen, you'll do just fine with a Long Bow instead. Those extra 40gc could be spent elsewhere with greater profit.

My last point is about the skills:

Quick Shot is a very very good skill. Even compared with BS instead, imagine this:

One shot at BS6 would usually hit on 2+ (cover at least). If we add long range it's 3+, if you have moved it's 4+. That's pretty alright.

Instead of that extra BS, you could take Quick Shot, which would be two shots at BS5 instead. That's generally a hit on 3+ (with cover). If it's at long range, he will hit on 4+ and if you have moved it's 5+.

Compare that: One shot at 4+ or two shots at 5+. Even in the worst case situation, you're much more likely to get some bang for the buck by having Quick Shot on all your warriors. In the best case, you're trading one shot at 2+ for two shots at 3+. Very much better. I know skills are more expensive, but if you find yourself facing an opponent without cover/at short range, BS6 is too much. And your short range is 15". You could perhaps skip that extra attack on your Leader along with all the Hero Ld increases. Else, you might also consider skipping both BS increases for Quick Shot, but then we are nearing an even score (2+ or two shots at 4+, still better though, but not if you have moved + long range + cover)

So. I hope this helped just a bit! If you need more assistance, I would have to know which warband(s) your opponent(s) will play?

Good afternoon,

I am trying to avoid certain things with this force and the Standard is one of them, that is why the leader instead has the increase as a compromise. I have tried to get a feel for why the army is so frowned upon and adjust accordingly, even with the likes of Sniper I play the latest 'target doesn't die = Initiative test to see' rules.

The LD increases were due to the spare points I have floating about and a kind of safety net incase my leader goes. This is just as in individual games the threat of a Rout means it can end quicker than planned but this way I have a lot extra insurance if my leader bites the proverbial floor.

The Elf Bow is only 35gc in this guise. I am not sure if I have forgotten something but adding up all the stat increases, kit and one skill comes to 250gc. Though the point about lack of armour is valid as I am really only taking it for the extra 6" range and the potential player that does take armour.

As for the skills well I might drop it down so that the Leader doesn't have the +2BS but really it became a little bit of a point filling excercise and as we play on boards heavy with terrain I though the extra 30gc for +2BS was better than say the +40gc for Trick Shot which is highly situational and countered by a higher BS. Quick Shot just felt the best of the bunch and the only one really worth it.

As for opponents, that could be anything. We have limited it to warbands from the core rules, 2002 Annual and BTB and we are taking the most heavily FAQ of the lists to keep armies like Elves down (I actually put forward for this, I am one for playing fair and getting a win through my ability to play a game, not my ability to exploit). Perhaps that might be why the stat increase seem odd as I was trying to avoid broken things and ended up filling with balanced stuff (not a super powered warband but a small one that tries not to run away, again as a compromise).

Finally thanks for the help, this is just an idea for the moment as I am also thinking of doing a different Noble's hunting party using Reiklander rules and Bretonnian Peasent bowmen, so Marksmen, the leader being the Noble, Champions being Masters of the Hunt and Youngbloods being the bloke that fetches the pheasent they just put an arrow through etc.

'FireKnife'

FireKnife wrote:

I am trying to avoid certain things with this force and the Standard is one of them, that is why the leader instead has the increase as a compromise. I have tried to get a feel for why the army is so frowned upon and adjust accordingly, even with the likes of Sniper I play the latest 'target doesn't die = Initiative test to see' rules.

Alright, I can understand that. Again, I'd like to underline, that I suggested just going Ld with the Leader only.

FireKnife wrote:

The LD increases were due to the spare points I have floating about and a kind of safety net incase my leader goes. This is just as in individual games the threat of a Rout means it can end quicker than planned but this way I have a lot extra insurance if my leader bites the proverbial floor.

Alright. Well, chances are, that if you are rout testing, your leader is not dead. You have provided him with two extra Wounds. My suggestion would be to switch those 3 Leadership increases on your other Heroes, with an extra skill for your leader; a suggestion might be Leap (if you play that you can Leap & shoot) vs. melee warbands and Dodge vs. ranged warband. Again, it depends on who you might face.

FireKnife wrote:

The Elf Bow is only 35gc in this guise. I am not sure if I have forgotten something but adding up all the stat increases, kit and one skill comes to 250gc. Though the point about lack of armour is valid as I am really only taking it for the extra 6" range and the potential player that does take armour.

Alright. If it's 35gc then discard my comment. I can understand that, especially with the lack of Crossbows.

FireKnife wrote:

As for the skills well I might drop it down so that the Leader doesn't have the +2BS but really it became a little bit of a point filling excercise and as we play on boards heavy with terrain I though the extra 30gc for +2BS was better than say the +40gc for Trick Shot which is highly situational and countered by a higher BS. Quick Shot just felt the best of the bunch and the only one really worth it.

Trick Shooter is definitely not worth it. I understand your rationale with the +2 BS, but usually Quick Shot really pays off. Especially because it gives you two chances to crit instead of one.

FireKnife wrote:

As for opponents, that could be anything. We have limited it to warbands from the core rules, 2002 Annual and BTB and we are taking the most heavily FAQ of the lists to keep armies like Elves down (I actually put forward for this, I am one for playing fair and getting a win through my ability to play a game, not my ability to exploit).

Well, I'd say that you ought to know which warband one another is playing. This provides the most balanced games imo., as everyone can prepare for what they believe will be a problem and act accordingly. Otherwise it's just guessing. If they know your warband, you should at least know theirs.

FireKnife wrote:

Finally thanks for the help, this is just an idea for the moment as I am also thinking of doing a different Noble's hunting party using Reiklander rules and Bretonnian Peasent bowmen, so Marksmen, the leader being the Noble, Champions being Masters of the Hunt and Youngbloods being the bloke that fetches the pheasent they just put an arrow through etc.

No problem! If you need help with any of those, I'd be happy to give some feedback (which you can use or not as you please )

One question though: What is the reason behind not taking the Spell Weaver?

WELCOME ABOARD Fearless Leader Tom's   Yet Oft Times Cool & Inspiring Nonetheless Mordheim Forum. Have a FUN stay!  

Since this is more of a rules thread than an introduction, I'll move it to the Rule & Games Play Section...you should get more of a response to your rules query there.  

Thanks for the welcome and the thread move. Wasn't sure as it is nice to say hello.

However on to Aipha's points:

1. I will put that at the top of my tweaks list as to start with I am just seeing what works. However good point.

2. Will also look at that, however this is meant to be a take on everyone list as we don't really worry about flashing lists to each other. So long as it is with the 990-1000gc mark that is fine. I am sure I will find a good skill though.

3. Well the Elf Bow might go if everyone else seems to get the lack of armour but we have a few players with whacky ideas that might take it for fun and the extra 6" always helps.

4. That is true, I might balance it with +1BS and Quick Shot, best of both worlds kind of thing as I have a feeling that I will need to be mobile which that extra +1BS will help on.

5. As said above we don't really know that much about each others list. It is like how we play other games, turn up with a list that is meant to take on everything or just go all one or the other and hope your opponent doesn't have the perfect counter. Makes people less likely to tailor power lists as then we just all counter them until they get the point and it evens back to the status quo.

6. Thanks, not too sure on what to go with just yet as a few hours on eBay has shown me that I can easily get Dwarves, Mercs, Shadow Warriors and Undead on the go. For many of us this is something we plan to use the newer plastic kits for and some are more suited than others, stupid need for money.

Finally I have not taken a Spell Weaver as, and I know someone will laugh at this, it doesn't fit the narrative of my army. Cloak and dagger doesn't work so well when you have a bloke in a pointy hat, lots of books and red, fiery eyes following you around. Plus I have never been a fan of magic, in any form, same way I don't like close combat over ranged. It is just I want to stick to a narrative as that is how I have my fun (and get a few hilarious defeats too but ah well).

'FireKnife'