- Goglutin wrote:
- If I compare them a a troll they arent SOOO much over it. The troll is immortal, cheaper. Having a high WS isn't much a deal and their tremendous cost (coupled with the upkeep I'll be giving them) will counter-balance the things a bit.
Troll :
M:6 WS:3 BS:0 S:5 T:4 :W3 I:1 A:3 Ld: 4 .. stupid and regenerate, immortal, plus 15 gold upkeep
Bloodthirster :
M:6 WS:7 BS:3 S:6 T:5 :W4 I:4 A:3 Ld 9 .. bloodlust, armored, instability, plus upkeep ??(30 gold maybe??).
Just looking at the numbers it may not seem like your 'Thirster is crazy next to a Troll, but that changes once you consider the dice involved.
WS3 vs. WS7: The Bloodthirster will hit pretty much anything on a 3+, while a Troll will only hit Youngbloods and the like on a 3+. Anything that is WS4 or better hits the Troll on a 3+, while hitting the 'Thirster on a 4+. WS2 or 3 needs a 5+ to hit the 'Thirster! This bump is HUGE, pretty much an across the board +1 to hit and -1 to be hit.
S5 vs S6: 'Thirster will wound T4 on a 2+, which covers a huge gamut of characters: starting Orcs or Beastmen, Ogres, Trolls, and any human or Skaven that rolled a T increase. Oh, and a S3 model with a sword or buckler (or both) can parry a Troll but not a Bloodthirster. This bump is quite a bit bigger than it looks.
T4 vs. T5: Against S3 attacks, the 'Thirster will take half as many wounds as the Troll. That right there cancels out the bonus from the Troll's Regen. Also, the ability to inflict critical hits is very important for keeping multiwound models in check, and you must be S4 or higher to get a crit against T5. This increase is HUGE.
W3 vs. W4: An extra wound is a big deal, especially after we factor in that most starting models and lots of ranged attacks (bows, slings) cannot score criticals against the 'Thirster. This bump is BIG.
I1 vs. I4: Trolls pretty much can't climb or jump down, but a Bloodthirster will succeed 2/3 of the time. This makes shooting from an elevated position less of an effective strategy, because unlike a Troll, the 'Thirster can come up after you. In ongoing combats Trolls almost always strike last, while a 'Thirster will go ahead of most models that aren't Skaven and haven't gotten an I increase. This is a deceptive thing, but actually provides a defensive bonus, because almost nothing will be able to kill the 'Thirster in a single charge. This bump is slightly bigger than it looks.
A3 vs. A3: Nothing to see here, moving on.
Ld4 vs. Ld9: Not super relevant once special rules are taken into account. The Troll's low Ld is a severe handicap for it though, which the 'Thirster doesn't share.
Special rules!
Troll: Regen - This is great, gives it an unmodifiable 4+ save
'Thirster: Daemonic Aura and Armored - 4+ save that can be modified by S and magic, still pretty darn good. Especially in the early game this should always be at least a 5+, as there aren't a lot of S5 attacks running around.
'Thirster: Bloodlust - The chance is small, but an extra +3 attacks that hit on 3's, wound on 2's is crazy good! Needing to charge is hardly a downside given how powerful this model is.
'Thirster: Immune to Psychology - All Alone tests can be a good check to keep giant scary models from rampaging off on their own. No such luck for your poor opponent here.
Troll: Stupidity - While the 'Thirster gets an upside in the psych dept, the Troll takes a MAJOR hit. Ld 4 means it must be next to the leader to have any hope of participating in the battle, and even then, orcs don't have the greatest Ld. It should expect to fail this test at least once each game.
'Thirster: Immune to Poison - Weeping Blade Skaven are now sad, everyone else looses an uncommon but useful way to deal with the high T value.
'Thirster: Daemon - Vulnerable to Blessed Water. Finally a weakness! This stuff is nasty powerful, but one-shot per hero, and anyone other than Sisters or Witch Hunters is going to spend a LOT of gold and all their rare items rolls stocking up on it (average of 119 gold and 9 rare item rolls to get 6 vials). A house rule could also make Daemons vulnerable to Sigmarite Warhammers, but by RAW, those only have extra effect against Possessed and Undead.
'Thirster: Axe and Whip - armor piercing makes this monster ignore all armor, even a dwarf with Gromril and a shield. Compare that to the Troll, who still gives that dwarf a respectable 5+ save. The option to light someone on fire with a whip is nice I guess? Also, rules are unclear here: is it
- 3 attacks, of which 2 are axe, 1 is whip
- 3 attacks, of which 2-3 are axe, 0-1 is whip
- 3 attacks, all with axe, +1 for the off-hand whip, for a total of 4?
Troll: Regen and upkeep - Functional immortality is nice on such a big investment. Upkeep is annoying but manageable
'Thirster: Instability and upkeep - While this does mean that you stand to lose a big chunk of cash if anyone can take this sucker down, let's face it, is that going to happen often?
A highish price, upkeep cost, and increased chance of losing the investment won't, in the end, make up for the fact that until warband ratings hit at least 3-400, a Greater Daemon as you've statted it could probably win without any help from the rest of the band. Such a powerful creature just doesn't make sense in a skirmish game (either thematically or balance-wise).
However, this seems like something you're set on. I expect that if you were to keep the stats you've assigned, I'd want to see a cost of something like 30 shards of wyrdstone. It should NEVER be priced in such a way as to make it available to a starting warband, and should be prohibitively expensive so that it can't be taken until people have the tools available to deal with it (x-bow spam hoping for crits and Holy Water are really the only things I can think of other than situations where the Daemon warband was horribly outplayed by a better opponent who also had nasty combat characters). Upkeep cost of 2-3 shards seems reasonable, with the option to sacrifice a captive instead of paying in wyrdstone.
Subject: Yet another daemonic warband... 
Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 14:47
