Chameleon Skin & Blowpipe

Yet another question!

Lizardmen has access to a little Chameleon Skink, who's a bit harder to detect, than the rest of the crew. He's equipped with a Blowpipe, as we all know has the following special rule:

Quote :

Stealthy: A [warrior] armed with a blowpipe can fire while hidden without revealing his position to the enemy. The target model can take an Initiative test in order to try to spot the firing [warrior]. If the test is successful, the [warrior] no longer counts as hidden.

(Changed "Skaven" to "warrior" in the quote)

This is all good. However, the Chameleon Skink has a special rule as well: Chameleon Skin. This goes as follows:

Quote :

[F]oes halve their Initiative when trying to detect him when Hidden

How do these two work together?

Same applies with Pathfinders (with Natural Stealth (-1 Initiative to detect them)) and Aspect of the Panther (same skill as the Blowpipe special rule).

Imo, when the Chameleon Skink fires the blowpipe while hidden, the foe can take an initiative test at half his ini-value to try to detect the skink (or at -1 ini in case of the Pathfinder).

Grimscull wrote:

Imo, when the Chameleon Skink fires the blowpipe while hidden, the foe can take an initiative test at half his ini-value to try to detect the skink (or at -1 ini in case of the Pathfinder).

That is what we play with atm. as well. Very good synergy with these abilities!

Is the test rounded up or down? I'd say rounded up, for the sake of 1I warriors.

If it doesn't say you round then you don't have to round at all. Just roll the dice and compare in the normal manner. If they roll equal to or under their I they have passed the test.

Lord 0 wrote:

If it doesn't say you round then you don't have to round at all. Just roll the dice and compare in the normal manner. If they roll equal to or under their I they have passed the test.

I see a bit of a problem here, Lord

If I have I3 and try to detect the Skink with a roll of 2, did I then detect it or not?

Sorry, I am not sure where the problem is.

The rule is you must roll equal to or less than the value of the stat in question in order to pass. In this case the stat is I and is normally 3, but because the I is halved it is now effectively 1.5. A roll of 2 is greater than 1.5 so the test has failed.

Possibly because I am a little sleepy at the moment I really can't see what other interpretations there could be or why you need to round it at all. *Shrug* Perhaps in the morning after a sleep it will become clear .

In any case, the halved initiative would also mean that the I3 warrior would need to get within 1.5" in order to auto-detect the chameleon, instead of his usual 3". Again, this is a case where you just do the basic math and don't need to round the distance up to 2" or down to 1".

I see your point. However, in Warhammer/Mordheim I have yet to meet a 'half' number when rolling dice. Adding "rounded up" or "rounded down" just simplifies things when dealing with whole numbers.

About the 1,5" detection. Again, I agree, but I still prefer working with whole numbers (especially since the tool we use for measuring does not have 0,1" measurements.

Sorry, I am still confused. Why do you need a half number on a dice? I am also not sure how it simplified anything because as far as I can see all you are doing is adding a step.

It is probably a good idea to get a proper measuring tape that has the divisions of the inch on it, if only because retractable measuring tapes are handy. I don't think I have come across a retractable measuring tape that doesn't have divisions of the inch. Even the cheaper one has half and quarter inches marked on it and that is about all you need. If you are going down to 16ths of an inch then you are probably playing the wrong game .

Basically I agree with Lord 0, in that you should halve your initiative and don't really need to round up or down- but only so far as auto-detecting is concerned.

If your initiative (halved for the Chameleon ability) is a fraction - i.e. 1.5 or some such - then to automatically detect someone you have to be within 1.5 inches.

I think you two have gotten confused over which part of detection you're taking about though   

If you need to pass an initiative test on the halved value, and that value is still a fraction, then you would round it down to the nearest whole number; in this case you would need a 2+ to pass an initiative test on the halved value of 1.5.

Gawd, I must be awful at explaining! ^_^

I'm just saying, that usually in Mordheim when you have to halve something, you have to round that halved number up or down, since we rarely work with half numbers (Dwarves failing stupidity and moving would be a case, where we do)

In this specific case, I suggested that the halved result should be rounded up - i.e. a I1 model would still detect on I1, instead of not being able to detect the Skink at all.

Anyway, I can follow your way of doing it, I was just suggesting another way of working it out, as to not gimp already gimped units.

According to the RAW, your way of doing it is correct, Lord 0 so I suppose I'll just go with that.

- Thanks all of you!

Since a lot of people follow the assumption that Mordheim is a variation on old editions of WHFB rules, I came to the conclusion that it's reasonable for you to have to be 1" away at all times, unless you're in combat (this is how my group plays, at any rate), so logically an Ini 1 model would not be able to detect an enemy that was hiding, unless he were (paradoxically) in combat with it already- because even if you didn't halve his initiative he would have to be within 1" to automatically detect the enemy, and you can't be within 1" unless you're in base to base.

Does that make sense?

Not sure if other people follow the 1" exclusion zone rule, but it helps keep track of who is and isn't in combat during our multiplayer games.

We have that house rule. However, there are exceptions. For instance, if there's a wall between the two and they can't see each other, they will not be in combat. Also, if there's a difference in the level they're on, they don't have to be in close combat either (rarely floors less than 1" high, but it happens!)

So it is possible, but rarely the case!

It was mostly concerned the rolling of a dice to detect, as the rules of Blowpipe and Aspect of the Panther extrapolates.

Quote :

It was mostly concerned the rolling of a dice to detect, as the rules of Blowpipe and Aspect of the Panther extrapolates.

Ah, well in that case you would round down the results; in the most literal sense you can't get lower than Initiative 1.5 on a D6 roll unless you roll a 1.

Aipha wrote:

We have that house rule. However, there are exceptions. For instance, if there's a wall between the two and they can't see each other, they will not be in combat. Also, if there's a difference in the level they're on, they don't have to be in close combat either (rarely floors less than 1" high, but it happens!)

So it is possible, but rarely the case!

In the case of there being a wall (which they can see over) between the two of them, whether the wall is there or not, you would have to be within an inch of someone to auto-detect, but you can only be so close if you are in combat. Using RAW (even if it is a house rule :p), in this scenario I would say it's impossible.

If both models are base to base with a wall, which neither model can see over, and you know the wall is only a half inch thick (or any thickness that's less than an inch), then I would say it is possible to auto-detect. In this case you cannot physically be in combat when you are within an inch, so it would be fine. Fluff-wise, I would just imagine the Chameleon thinks he's safe, so doesn't try to sneak so much and some of his scrabbling about can be heard (as odd as it is, this seems the most literal translation of both rules).

In the case of one model being on a small elevation, I think it would be so rare as to not really be an issue, personally- We measure distances in 3D, so if you're a half inch off the ground and the model is within an inch of you, taking the elevation into account, you'd still be in combat with him. If there are more confusing situations arising from elevations, walls and other such things, it'll be the TOs fault for setting up such a cluttered board (and the solution would be to roll off and be gentlemanly about the result)

Hope that's comprehensive enough