Chaos warbands in Campaigns

So - As mentioned elsewhere, me and some freinds are starting up one of those long campaings, sometime in the near future. For this we have decided to, for the first time ever, include some house rules.
For starters we changed to armor rules a bit and allowed a debuffed version of the Shadow Warriors, as the only unofficial warband.
But thats another story
- Whats on my mind here is the chaos warbands. Cult of the Possessed, Carnival of Chaos and Beastmen Raiders.

So here is a bunch of questions thats beed tumbling around in my head the passed days. We allready agreed on a change to Nurgle's Rot (Link), but theres still some issues that need attention.
Any feedback is appriciated

Multiple Mutations/Blessings
I read somewhere that GW had ruled that you could take some mutations multiple times. These being scorpion tail and extra arm, aswell as great claw and tentacle (up to the number of arms the worrior have).
I think there should be a limit to the amount of arms and tails you could stick on a single mini, even if i like the idear of limiting it all to one of each. maybie with the exeption of extra arms where i think the limit should be two.
Also, can beastmen take the "skill" mutation more then once? If so do they still cost dobble? And on that note, do warriors who get their mutations as a reward from the Shadowlord have to pay for them?

What do you think?

Great Claw
The Description of this mutation makes good sense, for mutants.
But what about the possessed?
Do they get an extra attack or is their initial 2A representing their two hands, meaning the they great claws just add +1str to one of these?

Tentacle
I read somewhere that a mutant with a tentacle sacritfice a hand to it, does limiting his weaponchoice to a single one-handed weapon. If this is true, does it have a similar effect for the possessed? do they loose one attack to the mutation? Also, can a mutant with a tentacle still fire a bow?

Blackblood and Spines
The spines are supposed to deal an "automatic" str 1 hit to everyone in base contact, while blackblood deals a str 3 hit, but does these hits hit automaticly? If not, what do you roll to see if they hit?

Who should be able to visit the Shadowlord?
One of the optional rules that we've talked about is the "Rewards of the Shadowlord" option. This raises a few qustions.
Should the other chaos warbands be able to benefit from their master like the Cult of the Possessed? And if so, Who should be able to go?

If the Carnival should have this option, i think the Master and the Tainted Ones should be the obvious choice as they are pretty much the Nurgle version of Magister and Mutants. Also they should, rather then get a mutation on 7-8 get one of the Blessings of Nurgle instead.

The Beastem are more difficult, as they dont have such direct Resemblance to the two others. However they are very much a chaos warband and they do have acces to mutations and chaos magic.
So one idear would be to allow all of their heroes to go. This could be justified by the fact that they dont have 25 gc heroes, who wont really be missed on a roll of 2 and who can live with a 3-6 result or two do to the starting xp of zero.
Another idear could be to allow every hero exept the centigor to take the trip, as he is (like the possessed) more of a monster.
Lastly, if the beastmen should have acces to the rewards, it could be a special privilegde for the Shaman only.

I like the idear about all 3 chaos warbands having this option, but i think its difficult to decide who, what and how. Anyone have experience with this?

The Rewards of the Shadowlord

As you proberly guessed by now, i kinda like the idear of these. However the text is somehow flawed.
First of all, what happens is you roll "Demon Armour" or "Possessed!" twice?
You canat wear another suit of chaos armour and the fluff makes it pretty clear that you cant give it away. Should you be allowed a mutation instead? or a reroll? The reroll would be a bit unfair somehow, seeing that you just rolled one of the really good results only to risk dying again.
Being possessed also lack some clarification. Is the model now a Possessed for all intent and purpose? (in this case i dont think anyone but the Cult should be allowed to go look for the rewards of the shadowlord) Its not what is says but then again, its not very clear. If not, can you roll it several times and get insane stats? or should the player get to choose any other result on the list if he rolled 12 a second time? Like with the armour i find it kinda unfair to roll 12 just to reroll and die.

The Deamon weapon can obviously be rolled several times, as the description of "Possessed" says that the model can now only be armed with Deamon "weapons". But can it be given away to another member of the warband? I dont think so, but the text doesnt say anything about it.

If anyone have given this any thought please drop a line or a link

...

I guess thats all for now as said above, any feedback is appriciated

Thanks.

Stronzo wrote:

I read somewhere that GW had ruled that you could take some mutations multiple times. These being scorpion tail and extra arm, aswell as great claw and tentacle (up to the number of arms the worrior have).
I think there should be a limit to the amount of arms and tails you could stick on a single mini, even if i like the idear of limiting it all to one of each. maybie with the exeption of extra arms where i think the limit should be two.

That would be a house rule, as the built in system limits this based on cash, not many people have enough money to buy 8 arms and tails.

Stronzo wrote:

Also, can beastmen take the "skill" mutation more then once? If so do they still cost dobble? And on that note, do warriors who get their mutations as a reward from the Shadowlord have to pay for them?

As per official rules, you can only take one skill once. You can't get combat or shooting skills to stack by multiple advances of the same skill, and likewise with special skills. Shadowlord mutations are free as per the official optional rules, and the only way to get mutations after joining a possessed warband.

Stronzo wrote:

The Description of this mutation makes good sense, for mutants.
But what about the possessed? Do they get an extra attack or is their initial 2A representing their two hands, meaning the they great claws just add +1str to one of these?

This was cleared up in the FAQ, (and I believe claws are better for possessed than mutants), but the claw acts as an attached hand weapon, so 1 claw basically gives an off-hand attack of +1 strength. If all hands are claws, you get the additional off-hand attack, but no more attacks for more than 1 claw. All hands as claws means you have the result of all attacks at +1 strength and a total of your base attacks plus one off-hand attack.

Stronzo wrote:

I read somewhere that a mutant with a tentacle sacritfice a hand to it, does limiting his weaponchoice to a single one-handed weapon. If this is true, does it have a similar effect for the possessed? do they loose one attack to the mutation? Also, can a mutant with a tentacle still fire a bow?

This is trickier, and probably better handled with a house rule, but tentacles replace an arm, for certain, but not your base attacks (so possessed don't lose an attack). As for weapons, that is an argument everyone has. For me, it seems rediculous to assume a tentacle can wrap someone's arm (attack) up and still have the mobility to attack effectively with a crudely clenched weapon or an unarmed tentacle slap. I prefer to house rule tentacles as 50gc and separate from arms, non-attacking or weapon holding, with the -1 attack, but like I say, probably better handled in your house.

Stronzo wrote:

The spines are supposed to deal an "automatic" str 1 hit to everyone in base contact, while blackblood deals a str 3 hit, but does these hits hit automaticly? If not, what do you roll to see if they hit?

Automatic hits mean you skip all combat stuff dealing with hitting (parries, modifiers, step asides, other saves) because the hit cannot be stopped. You skip straight to rolling wounds and all that encompasses (armour saves, lucky charms, etc). So at the start of combat, you roll to wound a strength 1 spine. After a wound is caused, blackblood rolls to wound at strength 3.

Stronzo wrote:

One of the optional rules that we've talked about is the "Rewards of the Shadowlord" option. This raises a few qustions. Should the other chaos warbands be able to benefit from their master like the Cult of the Possessed? And if so, Who should be able to go?

No. Shadowlord and Nurgle are not the same gods. Chaos is an alignment, not a religion. The Cult of the Possessed are the only ones directly involved with the Shadowlord. I do, however, house rule the mutation for Possessed and Beastmen Warbands to be random and not chosen instead: Roll 2D6 - 2= -1 to characteristic, 3-11 is in the order of the list of the book, 12 is either choose 1 or roll 2 more times ignoring 12s.

Stronzo wrote:

First of all, what happens is you roll "Demon Armour" or "Possessed!" twice?

Having recently been raped by a Mutant with 3 mutations, armour and a daemon sword, I've come to believe, like other skills, you can only visit the Shadowlord once. "instead of picking a skill", could mean the one skill one time rule, or you can read it as anytime a skill is available, so is a trip to the Shadowlord. Something about a pathetic chaos warrior going to the shadowlord 4 times a game seems silly to me. If I was the Shadowlord I'd be like "WTF? My first gift isn't enough for you to cause chaos??? Die pansy!"

Stronzo wrote:

Being possessed also lack some clarification. Is the model now a Possessed for all intent and purpose? (in this case i dont think anyone but the Cult should be allowed to go look for the rewards of the shadowlord) Its not what is says but then again, its not very clear. If not, can you roll it several times and get insane stats? or should the player get to choose any other result on the list if he rolled 12 a second time? Like with the armour i find it kinda unfair to roll 12 just to reroll and die.

Ignoring the 'one time to the Shadowlord' fix, once you are possessed, you cannot roll on the table, as only mutants and magisters can.

Stronzo wrote:

The Deamon weapon can obviously be rolled several times, as the description of "Possessed" says that the model can now only be armed with Deamon "weapons". But can it be given away to another member of the warband? I dont think so, but the text doesnt say anything about it.

I believe the Shadowlord will kill you for insolence if you give away his gift

Some sensible ideas brokenv, you helped clear some stuff up for me.

However I've always considered the Claw a replacement of an arm (ie no extra attacks) - personally I'd run a house rule reducing its cost accordingly, probably the vanilla 40gc.

Here is the whole Official FAQ on possessed specific rules:

Official Mordheim FAQ wrote:

9.4 Possessed

Q: Can you take a multiple of the same mutation so that each one gives you a benefit? For example: Tentacle twice for -1 Attack per tentacle.
A: Yes. However, in order to get three Tentacles, you must first buy the Extra Arm mutation as the Tentacle has to have an arm to grow from. You can have multiples of any of the mutations with cumulative effects. But, remember that a Possessed with say, two Blackbloods costs 180 GC! [Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ]

Q: Does the profile chart on page 121, include the benefits that Mutants and Possessed may gain from mutations? For example, can a Mutant who was bought with 2 of the Extra arm mutations, which would give him 3 attacks in close combat, only gain one more attack advance on his profile? Or could he end up with 4 attacks gained from advances and then have 2 extra attacks from having 2 extra arms?
A: No. Just as they don't include benefits of weapons models carry and yes, he could end up with six attacks if the dice favored him. [Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ]

Q: When choosing the Third Arm mutation on my mutant, it says that, using this arm I can chose any one-arm weapon... does that include the Sisters of Sigmar Steel Whip? I know it is only available to the Sisters of Sigmar but does the mutation void this rule.
A: As long as the Mutant in question has Weapons Training, he can use a Steel Whip, Dwarf Axe, or other one handed close combat weapon in the arm. Of course, the only possibility to get this weapon is if an enemy hero is Captured by you at the end of a battle and you sell him into slavery (some warbands get other options too In this case you get their equipment, to dispose of as you see fit, including giving it to Weapons Trainees to use.

Q: A Mutant has Str3/ A1, an extra arm(+1A), a great claw (+1 A at +1 str), a double handed weapon (+2 str). He gets 1 attack at str4, 2 at str 5, or 1 str5 2 str4. Is this correct? Does it matter if the claw is on an original, or a 3rd arm (especially a gift of the shadow lord arm)?
A: This is not correct. The Great Claw replaces an arm. The text reads "One of the mutants arms ends in a great, crab-like claw". The extra attack represents the ability to attack once with the claw and once with a hand weapon in the non-mutated arm. On your mutant above you start out with 2 arms. You get the extra arm mutation so you have 3 arms. One of those arms mutates into a claw, so now you have 1 claw and 2 arms. The 2 normal arms wield the 2-handed weapon. This gives you 1 S4 attack with the claw and 1 S5 attack with the 2-handed weapon. If instead of a 2-handed weapon you used 2 regular hand weapons you would have 3 total attacks. 1 at S4 and 2 at S3.

Ah, thank you it clears it up

brokenv wrote:

Stronzo wrote:

The spines are supposed to deal an "automatic" str 1 hit to everyone in base contact, while blackblood deals a str 3 hit, but does these hits hit automaticly? If not, what do you roll to see if they hit?

Automatic hits mean you skip all combat stuff dealing with hitting (parries, modifiers, step asides, other saves) because the hit cannot be stopped. You skip straight to rolling wounds and all that encompasses (armour saves, lucky charms, etc). So at the start of combat, you roll to wound a strength 1 spine. After a wound is caused, blackblood rolls to wound at strength 3.

Ouch, your explanation is not completely correct. An automatic hit can be stopped, there is just no need to roll to hit. No parry is possible because there is no 'to hit' roll, but other saves against a 'hit' may be taken as normal, i.e. Lucky Charms. (Lucky Charms save against the first 'hit', they have no effect on wounds.)

Step Aside will only come into play if the hit wounds, because oddly enough Step Aside only negates wounds not hits.

Thanks for the comments guys

I know what an automatic hit is what bothers is that while spines says "automatic" in the description, blackblood doesnt. I take it they both deal automatic hits, but i wanted to be sure

Quote :

once you are possessed, you cannot roll on the table

But if the warrior becomes a possessed in every way by rolling this result, wouldt that mean sharing the possessed max stats, ect. As the long list of bonusses are not counting towards max stat cap, i doubt the intent is for the model is to be treatet as one of the possessed. But rather a warrior of its original type (Human). However IF the warrior counts as a Possessed after rolling 12 it clears up another problem "No weapons? but it doesnt say anything about fighting unarmed without penalty"

Cheers

My interpretation: the model gets the stat changes etc, but does not become a "possessed" per the warband list. You can only have two models bought as "possessed", any guys who gain this enhancement from the shadowlord remain brethren/magisters. This means they do not automatically cause fear.

The chaos armor/demon weapon clause indicated clearly that models may visit the shadowlord multiple times, but be warned... I sent two members after a game last week and they both came back with nothing! I do not recommend using these rules, if you roll like my you will waste a lot of level ups. If you want random mutation use "the power in the stones" instead.

I agree with everything your write there pathfinder, but how do you handle several rolls of 12?
About the chance of dying, not getting anything or getting a bad mutation is part of what i like about these rules. I want chaos to be powerfull, yet random.
I think its really cool that the player may or may not choose to take these chances.

about the does getting possessed count as fighting unarmed: as a rule of thumb unless it's loosing a weapon in a game for whatever reason (sword breaker, one of the witch spells) then a permanent lack of being able to use weapons gives you no bonuses or penalties (ghouls, animals, zombies) so I would assume this falls into the permanent category.

In my group we try not to make house rules unless very clearly required. For the rewards of the Shadowlord we have left them as close to RAW as we could. So if you want to you can go multiple times. You can get multiple daemon weapons and they can be traded or gifted or *stolen*. If you roll multiple armours, bad luck, the second one doesn't really do anything because you are already armoured. If you roll Possessed! again then either another daemon has entered you as well or a stronger daemon has kicked the weaker out and taken up residence. Whatever makes you happier/gives you better modelling opportunities.

In my experience the table is self-correcting because if they go lots then either a) the odds will catch up with them and they will lose level-ups or even die, or b) they have now made themselves a clear threat and will have alliances against them until the threat is removed/the tasty daemon weapons are distributed.

As has already been stated, the main limitation to mutations is the fact that they cost a pretty penny indeed. Another limitation that is often overlooked, but should not be underestimated is that everything that *can* be modelled on has to be modelled on. This means that for a mutant there is only so much you can put on before can't even *fit*. Generally you run into the 'looks bloody stupid' limit before then though.

That being said, we do have a house-rule that any Possessed costing 400 gold or more must be modelled as a large target. We barely had to make that rule as almost everyone spending that much on a Possessed had to make it that large to fit everything on and still look good anyway, but it meant people didn't feel *obligated* to model their possessed all small.

brokenv wrote:

For me, it seems rediculous to assume a tentacle can wrap someone's arm (attack) up and still have the mobility to attack effectively with a crudely clenched weapon or an unarmed tentacle slap.

Rather than change the rules, perhaps consider a change in your assumptions? The tentacle's grip on the weapon clearly cannot be crude because if it was there would be some sort of penalty. A minus to hit or your oppontent always getting a parry attempt or armour save or something. There is nothing like that so clearly the grip cannot be crude. Or at least not crude enough to make a difference in combat.

And, as you say, the image of binding up with tentacle *and* attacking with a weapon/slap is silly. So what if they are not doing that? What if, instead, they are striking once with the weapon and *then* binding/grappling? under those circumstances they could be simply *holding* the weapon in a crude grip while they grapple, either with a single sucker or just a simple loop of tentacle or however the tentacle works.

Or perhaps the grappling represents very effective holds for part of the fight rather than a semi-effective grapple that is constant. It is, after all, only -1 attack - not completely immobilising or anything.

In any case, rather thinking of it as attacking with a slap, I think is better to think of it as a *squeeze* than a slap as that tends to be how tentacles do their damage. Similarly with the claw - base S attacks are strikes, the bonus +1S attack represents a special squeeze attack.

Entirely up to you, of course, and if the house rule makes things more fun for you then that is obviously the best choice. Sorry for the avalanch of text at your one comment, but the emphasis on changing explanations rather than changing rules is something I have been mulling over for a while now and you just happened to make the comment that crystalised things things in my mind and was the pebble at the top of the land-slide .