VonStreusel's Conundrum, see PG. 3

Alright! Here is the promised thread, detailing my plans and thoughts for my first Mordheim warband. Basically, reading the Crusades supplement re-ignited my Warhammer and more specifically Mordheim passion. So without further adieu, here are my thoughts:

First some history of the Knights of the Blazing Sun (for those of you who don't know) :

Taken from Wikipedia:

Knights of the Blazing Sun
The Knights of the Blazing Sun are the third largest and influential of the Knightly Orders in the Empire. The knights belonging to this order are all followers of Myrmidia, a goddess of warfare especially popular in the southern parts of the Old World.

History
During the wars against Araby some of the Empire's knights helped to recapture the Temple of Myrmidia in Magritta in 1457 IC, the southern sea port of Estalia This was part of the crusades which eventually freed the land of Estalia from the Arabian invaders. The battle was a great victory for the Knights of the Old World, made all the remarkable by a strange and prophetic occurrence. During the fierce street fighting around the temple of Myrmidia, a group of knights found themselves surrounded by the dreaded Black Scimitar Guard led by Emir Wasr the Cruel. Just as the Arabians closed in a sudden earth tremor shook the temple, dislodging a huge bronze statue of Myrmidia riding a pegasus which was fixed on its topmost steeple. The statue plummeted to the ground below, smashing into a thousand fragments and crushing the Emir and his troops. This event was to prove the turning point of the battle. Afterwards, upon returning to Empire, the surviving knights of that battle established the Order of the Blazing Sun with Myrmidia as its patron and protector and built a shrine to Myrmidia in Talabheim.

Appearance
These knights wear armour of burnished brass, and their shields bear the device of the blazing sun. Their standard depics a soaring Pegasus against the blazing sun emblem.
If you havent seen the concepts from Warhammer Online for these guys I suggest you do.

So now for MY ideas:
I want these guys to, instead of wearing plate armor and ridung around on horses all the time, basically be like the Knights in the real life Crusades against the Muslims (especially the early ones). Sure I suppose they did ride horses into battle but what about the sieges and such? Watch Kingdom of Heaven to see what I mean. Anyway back to the point, instead of plate armor the Knights themselves will wear chainmail and have earlier-looking helms.This will also eliminate the "poofy hats and feathers" that Knights/ Soldiers of the Empire tend to wear, and while I do love a poofy hat from time to time I dont think they are fitting with the theme. I am unsure of how far in the past these crusades took place in the WHFB world, but I think that this would make sense, seeing how blackpowder wasnt invented yet, according to the Crusades Supplement.

To distinguish themselves, these fellows will all wear tabards over their chainmail, with an insignia designating them as Knights of the Blazing Sun. Their swords and shields will also bear this marking.
Oh, and what rules will I be using you may ask? Ill be using the Brettonian warband rules, which leads me to the next part:

Warband Roster
**Note that this is my first-ever roster for Mordheim so please if I do something wrong or it is complete rubbish tell me!**

Questing Knight: 100pts
Shield, Helmet Sword and free Dagger.

2 Knights Errant: 145
One has two Swords, and the other has a Greatsword. Both have Helmets and free Dagger. ( These guys are for some variety, the two-sword guy is for fighting weak mobs while the greatsword fellow is my Nutcracker )

5 Bowmen: 175
Longbows and free Dagger.
(would I be better off with Men at Arms?Perhaps with Shields and Spears?)

After that, I'm at a loss. Thats 420 pts, so that leaves me with 80 to spend. Is it complete rubbish? Basically i see the three Knights as being, suprise suprise, Knights of the Blazing sun, while the Bowmen will be modeled up as State Troops sent along to support the knights. It worries me that there is only 8 models in the warband, so they'll route after losing only 2 members.(!)
As soon as I have the roster worked out I'll work on some fluff for these guys, as i'm a fluff gamer. Anyway hope that none of this was too confusing,and I hope you guys can keep me motivated to start (and finish) thes fellows.

Thanks for your time.

Only 3 heroes?

You can only have 1 questing Knight and 2 Knights Errant starting out, or ami I reading this Incorrectly? Do Squires count as heroes? (Oh the horror!)

**EDIT**
Alright so Squires ARE heroes, but they have god awful stats, IMHO. Should I take a couple with basic kit?

Heroes are what make you money in Mordheim, so it is highly recommended that you take as many heroes as you can start with.

Other notes: I would recommend getting at least a couple other CC henchmen to take a beating (and charges) for your heroes. If you only have (3) heroes in combat, they will die quickly, and you won't get any money for the round/game.

Archers are great for picking off the opponent before you get into combat, but once you get into combat, your archers become pretty useless (you can shoot at someone in CC)

Note re: sucky squires: crappy heroes get awesome quickly. When they start with 0 xp they get 4 level ups extremely quickly. I try to keep them alive for the first couple games so they can gain enough xp to get better.

There's two pence for you.

(We (ie those on this forum) should write a "Basic Mordheim Strategies Guide")

Ashton wrote:

We (ie those on this forum) should write a "Basic Mordheim Strategies Guide"

Already in the Mod/Admin pipeline. Will be there in the near-ish future.

Alright then, I'll definitely be going back through my list, thanks to your advice Ashton . Thanks for the replies!
P.S.
Any thoughts on my plans in modeling these blokes? I'll try to post up some pics later of what Im going for.

Admin Tom wrote:

Ashton wrote:

We (ie those on this forum) should write a "Basic Mordheim Strategies Guide"

Already in the Mod/Admin pipeline. Will be there in the near-ish future.

Sweet!

I think that's that's the last salute I owed you, but just in case

As promised heres a pic, basically im thinking out loud. This one is a good representation of a crusading Knight:


If you can imagine that crossed with Warhammer, then you'll get what i mean. I am at a loss for what minatures to use. The closest thing I've found is the Brettonian Lord with the Axe, and the big problem with him is hes mounted. Any suggestions fellas? That leads me to my biggest fear, are they going to look too Brettonia-esque? I think that the chainmail is justified, so we'll see.

I will of course be using black tabards with the Sun emblem and yellow/gold edging.

Taken from the Knight's description from WarCry for WAR:

Quote :

Each Knight has spent a lifetime training both physically and mentally and it is the latter that differentiates them from other warriors in the Old World. Though they are fierce warriors, the Knights of the Blazing Sun rarely travel as a large unit. In small groups and - even more often - individually, the Knights of the Blazing Sun travel the Empire seeking opportunities to test their skills, serve as advisors and commanders and to prove themselves on the battlefield.

and:

Quote :

The reputation of the Knights of the Blazing Sun stems more from their strategic genius than from anything else. Throughout the Empire, countless villages, farms and isolated outposts owe their survival to the timely arrival (and subsequent assumption of command) by a Knight of the Blazing Sun.

and finally:

Quote :

unlike members of other knightly orders - the Knights of the Blazing Sun are not at all averse to trickery and feel no obligation to engage their foes with what some regard as "honor." A Knight of the Blazing Sun is more than willing to disarm an opponent and then take their head.

Plus a bunch more info, I wont post it here, but for completness sake:
http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Knight_of_the_Blazing_Sun
It says in that article that the crusades were over 1000 years ago, so the Knights wearing Mail in place of plate seems to be OK.

As you all can tell, I like my research. As i said before I'm a fluff gamer.

Anyway sorry about the rant, and if any of you actually make it to the end of this, please tell me what you think. Thats it for now, tommorow I'll post a revised roster!

VonStreusel wrote:

if any of you actually make it to the end of this, please tell me what you think.

Absolutely great reading right there. Thanks for the post. I love the theme and the background. (I'm not a big warhammer guy, so I thought you made up that name )

As I said, I really love your theme and idea. It'll make for a great background story. I really can't wait to see this warband come to life!

Good ideas, i wonder are you going to to play with the Arby rules or set it in the city of the damned.

If the crusades were 1000 years before the current Warhammer time line, remember that Mordheim was 50 years prior. So maybe your sect of knights established themselves in a temple somewhere and after 50 years of hermetic life are ready to seek rloy and riches again!

as for models, ii suggest looking outside GW. The Perry twins have some crusades miniatures:
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index2.html

Check out set MA28 in the Muslim armies section, i think they are ideal for the look you want. CU17 is also pretty nice.

Maybe you could use putty for more robes and head-wraps, or head swaps with LotR Harad miniatures on bretonian bodies. The problem is the only GW knights that are on foot are in plate mail...

Reaper Miniatures makes some decent looking knights.

I personally buy 98% only GW but GW does not produce enough knights on foot, in fact there are only 4 or 5 made in recent years (over 5 years).

I have them all but they are not the most dynamic poses, one is kind of cool with a hammer in a forward motion.

I have always wanted to buy knights on foot.

Thanks for the replies! To answer some questions:

Quote :

Good ideas, i wonder are you going to to play with the Arby rules or set it in the city of the damned.

If the crusades were 1000 years before the current Warhammer time line, remember that Mordheim was 50 years prior. So maybe your sect of knights established themselves in a temple somewhere and after 50 years of hermetic life are ready to seek rloy and riches again!

Hrm maybe the leader is a veteran of the crusades, and being the war hungry bloke that he is, decides to go to Mordheim for some looting and pillaging? Or maybe its more af a religious thing.

As to the Perry Bros minis, I had thought about them and the sets you suggested do seem like good ideas. I am unsure though about their size. Does anyone have a comparison. I'm thinking that only 2 or 3 will have the "turbans" while the rest will either have helmets or arming caps (the little leather hats they wear under helmets).

@DaBank
I really wish that GW would produce some foot Knights, the closest thing, that i could find that is, are the Empire Longswords. Btw do you have any pictures of the Knights that you have? Could serve as some inspiration.

Here you go:

http://miniature-art.tripod.com/fantasyminiatures/id3.html


http://www.chaosorc.com/product_info.php?products_id=622


http://cgi.ebay.ie/3-BRETONNIAN-KNIGHTS-ON-FOOT-NOT-PAINTED-WARHAMMER_W0QQitemZ170238982821QQihZ007QQcategoryZ65254QQcmdZViewItem

I believe there are four and I can't find a pic of the 4th one.

The blazing suns could be visiting Mordheim as they are on a mission or they were wrongly dishonored.

I currently play the Brets but with Marienburg rules, yes, not quite the correct fit but a more balanced warband. My story line involves that they were wrongly dishonored and went to Mordheim to avert torture.

I found two non GW models that are sooo rare that I have the only two ever produced. The guy that made the Greens cast them for me.














The 4th one was from the Warhammer Quest game. It is similiar to the one with teh sword being held in his right hand with the wings on teh helmet but is a bit taller and in a different pose/stance.


Yea! I found the last one:

Quote :

found two non GW models that are sooo rare that I have the only two ever produced. The guy that made the Greens cast them for me.

Those my friend are AMAZING! Thanks for sharing them! I bet that cost a princely sum to have them cast? They are pretty much perfect for what I'm doing. I may have to look into either trying to do full sculpts, sculpting chain on existing GW models, or going with the Perry Bros fine minis. As always Im continuously researching, I'm sure the solution is out there!

As to their fluff, I'm working on it, and I should have something soon... I keep leaning for it to have some sort of religious meaning (for them to be in Mordheim that is), Sort of a Penitent quest or somesuch. Maybe a shrine of Myrmidia is in the City and they are tasked with defending it.....I dunno.

As to the other GW minis, those are definitely cool, but i'm unsure as to if theyd fit my theme. Maybe with some conversion work done on their heads?

And.... finally, you use Marienburger rules eh? Besides the fact that it is more balanced, do you use the extra crowns for better armor?

Thanks for your replies! Its nice to see that i've interested you. ( and everyone else.)

Quote :

found two non GW models that are sooo rare that I have the only two ever produced. The guy that made the Greens cast them for me.

Everything about that post is amazing: the minis, that there are only two, and that you have them... jerk

But seriously, Have you painted them? I want to see how they came out!

So what's the big deal about converting your own bretonnians on foot?

The normal bretonnians have seperate torsos
so you can easily use any suitable not-mounted legs.

There sure are some fitting legs bits around. Don't know if these High Elf Spearman ones would work for you...


The by far easiest conversion would probably be:

1. Bretonnian Head

2. Empire State Troops

3. Bretonnian arms, weapons and shield as usual.

On the Non GW minis thing: the Perry-Minis & War Games Foundry [The Foundry nowadays] minis are designed & sculpted by Michael & Alam Perry along with Dave Andrews & Ali Morrison, all of whom were & are founding sculptors for Citadel [some of the earlier ranges of Foundry were originally sold by Citadel;e.g., the War of the Roses range]. Ergo, the style of the minis would be the same as anything would could get from GW, although they may be marginally smaller.

Conversions are the BEST way to have war-band that is uniquely your own. However, if you don't already have an extensive collection of extra parts, this can initally be a pretty expensive way to go. Of course the BEST way to get that extensive bits box is by doing coversions . AND conversions can entail at least a modicum of sculpting ability.

I won't give you any rules advice; reading rules has a certain effect on moi . Whaterer way you go with your project, I have the feeling it will be ONE COOL LOOKING WAR BAND!

LOL. Somehow my post disappeared.

One the 2 unique Knight models, I will email him (Degra) and let him know others are interested in his work, maybe he will cast more.

The Marienburg rules work fine as I am using a "dishonored or disbanded" Templar Knight theme.

Check our Reaper Miniatures online for their knights, they have some really neat ones. I have never purchased one but I do like them.

I will try to take pictures of mine but either I suck or the camera does, (between me and you I think it is the camera). LOL.

Quote :

So what's the big deal about converting your own bretonnians on foot?

The normal bretonnians have seperate torsos
so you can easily use any suitable not-mounted legs.

There sure are some fitting legs bits around. Don't know if these High Elf Spearman ones would work for you...


The by far easiest conversion would probably be:

1. Bretonnian Head

2. Empire State Troops

3. Bretonnian arms, weapons and shield as usual.

Thats what I had originally considered, although I am afraid of whether or not I could do them justice. I HAD thought that I could use the State Troops as a basis, shave down their arms and legs to use as an armature and sculpt the mail / tabard over that. It ciuld probably turn out ok, as I do have a little experience when it comes to greenstuff, and grey and brownstuff lol.

Quote :

On the Non GW minis thing: the Perry-Minis & War Games Foundry [The Foundry nowadays] minis are designed & sculpted by Michael & Alam Perry along with Dave Andrews & Ali Morrison, all of whom were & are founding sculptors for Citadel [some of the earlier ranges of Foundry were originally sold by Citadel;e.g., the War of the Roses range]. Ergo, the style of the minis would be the same as anything would could get from GW, although they may be marginally smaller.

Conversions are the BEST way to have war-band that is uniquely your own. However, if you don't already have an extensive collection of extra parts, this can initally be a pretty expensive way to go. Of course the BEST way to get that extensive bits box is by doing coversions . AND conversions can entail at least a modicum of sculpting ability.

I won't give you any rules advice; reading rules has a certain effect on moi . Whaterer way you go with your project, I have the feeling it will be ONE COOL LOOKING WAR BAND!

Thanks for the reply! I am unsure as of yet whether or not I will be going GW or non-GW. I of course would love to go with GW minis, but as stated a couple of times there are few suitable minis.

I will definitely have a look at Foundry's minis before I make my descion. I'm beginning to think that converting will be the best way to go, then they can look exactly how i want.

Quote :

LOL. Somehow my post disappeared.

One the 2 unique Knight models, I will email him (Degra) and let him know others are interested in his work, maybe he will cast more.

The Marienburg rules work fine as I am using a "dishonored or disbanded" Templar Knight theme.

Check our Reaper Miniatures online for their knights, they have some really neat ones. I have never purchased one but I do like them.

I will try to take pictures of mine but either I suck or the camera does, (between me and you I think it is the camera). LOL.

That would be great, I'd love to buy at least the one with the keg. And as to the Reaper Minis thing, I've never been too fond of them, I dont really know why, but whenever I look through them I seem to want to stop as soon as possible. Maybe its just me.

Thank you all for the replies! We shall soon come to a solution!!

VonStreusel wrote:

It ciuld probably turn out ok, as I do have a little experience when it comes to greenstuff, and grey and brownstuff lol.

That's why you need to start practicing some time. Why not now?

You are, of course right sir. Problem is I have none of said minis and very little funding at the moment. As you saw in my trading post, I also want to do a Marauders band, which may help me get my feet wet before I jump off into the deep end with these fellows. What do you think? Should I forge ahead? (Im going to do both warbands one day so its neither here nor there which i do first.) Or should I begin work on my Khornate Marauders . I dunno. We'll see I guess!

Thanks for the reply!

OH! I just happened to be look in my Warhammer stuff and I have a bunch of the old state troops. I dont know that theyll work for this, I just felt the need to tell everyone!

I found out the real reason to go to Araby

VonStreusel wrote:

What do you think? Should I forge ahead? (Im going to do both warbands one day so its neither here nor there which i do first.) Or should I begin work on my Khornate Marauders . I dunno. We'll see I guess!

Well, for me it works quite well to have numerous projects to do. There's always a couple of warbands and misc models I need to paint and convert and I'm always working on more than one scenery piece at a time. However, there's a thin line between motivation from pressure and frustration from stress. It's a personal line for everyone so you will know best how many projects at a time are healthy for your hobbying progress.