New player--first warband

Hello, denziens of Boring! I am currently attempting to build my first warband--a Marienburg group. My warband will have to join in with some waaay more experienced warbands, so I am expecting to have my face handed to me. That said, I'd like to at least have a fighting chance. Here is what I have so far (specific questions below):

Captain--Brace of dueling pistols, sword, buckler
Champ #1--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
Champ #2--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
Youngblood #1--Bow
Youngblood #2--Bow
Marksmen x 3--Crossbows, hammers
Swordsman x2--Sword, buckler

My idea with this list was to find a balance between numbers of troops and arming them well. If any of you see any glaring holes, please hit me with some critique!

I am sure I will come up with more queries, but here are my main questions:

1. May I have a buckler if I am already equipped with two close combat weapons?
2. For groups, such as my three marksmen, I must give them the same loadout? How does one fit a Blunderbuss, given the high expense?!?
3. I think I remember someone telling me that it isn't a good idea to have 2xswords on swordsmen. I can't remember why they mentioned this, however. Any ideas?

Your champions are overarmed, and since a sword already has the parryrule, there really is no use for a buckler. I would go with one sword each for a start, and perhaps no bucklers, and perhaps only one duelling pistol to start with. Remember that you get a free dagger for every model! For the extra money you might consider adding a marksman with blunderbuss and a hammer. Personally, I opted for several blunderbusses in my marienburger gang...

The answers:
1: Yes, but you cannot use them all at the same time, as your warriors only have two hands each.
2: Same loadout for the groups, but it its considered optimal by most not to group your henchmen, as you get more Lad's got talent- possibilities that way. A blunderbussier might be alone in his/her group. You can have as many "groups" as you like.
3: Two swords are expensive. As you long as you play with the vanilla parry rules, they're also not very effective for their cost, you get more value for your money with a sword/other-combination.

Personally, I voting for brace of dueling pistols and a sword on your leader. They are awesome and fitting for an true Marienburger rich kid...

Hey good luck with your game.
I would give the champs a pistol, crosbow, sword and club insted of your current equipment... that should save you 22 gc per champ and would be a better mix of range and cc.
To maximise survivability give the youngbloods the sword and buckler... with ws2 your oponent needs a lower no to hit ( 3 ) and means you have a better chance of parrying.... even better keep them out of combat untill they get better. I wuld also drop their bows as they are unlikely to hit much with bs2.
If you do all that and also drop your leaders buckler you'll have an extra 39 gc to buy another henchman and with 6 henchmen ( all in different groups ) you'r sure to get a LGT ( or two if someone dies ) after your first game..... remember the underdog bonus.
The best bit of advice for you is to hang back in the game untill you see a real advantage in risking your inexperienced fellas , take an early voulantary rout after two casualtys and keep all your heros alive for the cash.. and above all DON'T SPLIT YOUR WARBAND lol...... actually scratch that. Above all.... HAVE FUN!

What warbands youplaying against?

Sorry if I'm a bit incoherent 1.5hrs sleep in the last 24hrs

Here are my suggestions, Repeter (fairly minor - you developed a good warband for a newcomer to the game):

Captain--Brace of dueling pistols, sword, buckler
I'd keep the brace, rather than drop one pistol. That way he can potentially take a shot every turn. You want you captain to have every opportunity for experience - starting with 20 experience points, he is already in the range where he needs 4 ex pts for a bump. Drop the buckler, though - as Floketsfiende notes, it is redundant (so, +5 gp saved)


Champ #1--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
Drop one sword and the buckler (one sword gives you the parry rule, the rest doesn't help). Either go with an axe (5 gp) or hammer (3 gp) for a second weapon or start with him with just using his free dagger as his second weapon. Depending on whether you go with the dagger, axe or hammer, you are saving between 10 to 17 gp. Give him a bow (-10 gp) Net = +0 to 7 gp.


Champ #2--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
See above - another 10 to 17 gp saved, without bow, or 0 to 7 with bow.

Youngblood #1--Bow
Give him a hammer (3 gp). If he gets in melee, you want him to have two attacks. I often don't assign young bloods missile weapons until their BS moves to 3: with a 2 BS, they only have a 1/3 chance of hitting someone right in front of them, and if there is even one penalty they only hit on a 1/6 chance (since my warbands tend to move a lot, my youngbloods rarely have the 1/3 shot). But Marienburgers are rich, so a bow makes sense. -3 gp


Youngblood #2--Bow
See above (another -3 gp)

Marksmen x 3--Crossbows, hammers
Hmmm. Crossbows have one advantage (Str 4), but they are lumbered with the move or shoot rule. What is your play style like? If you warband is going to be moving much, your crossbowmen are often going to be unable to fire. You might consider replacing all three crossbows (75 gp) with three long bows (45 gp), Better: let one keep his crossbow, and give the other two longbows (20 gp saved)

Swordsman x2--Sword, buckler
No bucklers (5 gp saved each).

I think this leaves you with about enough to add another marksman with a blunderbuss, who should run 58 (with a hammer and blunderbuss). (5 from the captain, 14 from the champs if you let them use free daggers, 20 from replacing two crossbows with longbows, and 10 from dropping the swordsmens' bucklers = 49 saved, -6 for youngblood hammers = 43. Not enough, but close. But you could certainly add a blunderbuss to one of the three existing marksmen, if you can't figure out any additional savings for the fourth one (I personally would be looking closely at the youngbloods' bows, but I know a lot of experienced players here argue for youngbloods with bows).

Whatever you decide - good luck.

(But you do want at least one blunderbuss. Seriously!)

What about this variation?
Captain--Brace of dueling pistols, sword, buckler
Lose the buckler (+5 gp)

Champ #1--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
Drop the second sword and the buckler (+15 gp)

Champ #2--Dueling pistol, 2xswords, buckler
Drop the second sword and the buckler (+15 gp)

Youngblood #1—Bow
Add a hammer (-3 gp)

Youngblood #2--Bow
Add a hammer (-3 gp)

Marksmen x 3--Crossbows, hammers
Instead:
Marksmen #1--Crossbow, hammer (No change)
Marksman #2 – Bow, hammer (+15 gp)
Marksman #3 – Bow, hammer (+15 gp)

Swordsman x2--Sword, buckler
Drop the bucklers (+10 gp)

Net Savings: 69

Which allows Marksman #4 – bow, blunderbuss, hammer (68 gp)

A more substantial drift from your original would be as above, except strip the champs of their dueling pistols (+30 gold), the youngbloods of their bows (+20 gold), and Marksman 4 of his bow (+10 gold), which = 60, enough for Marksman #5 w. blunderbuss and hammer.

From a gaming point of view, that is probably a better build (more chances for henchman promotions to heroes, and two blunderbusses really encourage people to stay the hell away from you), but from a more role-playing point of view I like the youngbloods with their bows and the champs with DPs - they are Marienburgers and the characters should have a lot of stuff.

I agree with the above posters, except for a mathematical clarification.

a second sword (or a buckler) DOES in fact help, and its not negligible. the "parry" rule has the same effect (statistically) as a 6+ save that isnt modified by strength. The second sword (or buckler) allows you to reroll that save.

with a parry save, 83% of all wounds will "go through", but with a reroll its 69%. the first parry hence gives a 17% reduction, and the reroll gives an additional 14%. almost as high!

Also, parry works even better for youngbloods, since they have WS2 and are often hit on 3+, this makes the "parry" slightly better than a 6+ save.

that being said, there is ofc no reason to have 3 sources of parry (2 swords and a buckler).

cherios!

I am one of those that recommend getting ranged weapons for *all* one's heroes - including the youngbloods. If only because it allows you the chance of everyone firing all their weapons at the approaching enemy and everyone wiffing except for the youngblood who crits with a ricochet and takes out two of the bastids.

It is true that on average you won't be getting all that many shots off, but the thing is if you break it down by scenario you get a slightly different picture. I will use the two most extreme examples just to make the point, but if you look at, say, breakthrough (a very active scenario) you will find you hardly ever shoot and wonder why you spent the money on ranged weapons at all. Then you will play something like Defend the Find as the defender and it will all become clear. Heck, even your juves will likely get a kill or three on that scenario .

Also, a shot with a bow Hunting Arrows is more likely to take someone OOA than a crossbow

Because Marienburgers don't really have anyone with STR skills that they can send into melee (the leader is *far* to important to send in by himself, and has better skills to get anyway) Marienburgers don't get as much out of pistols being a melee weapon that other warbands do. However, since they *all* get Combat, Shooting, and Speed they *are* good at making an almost uniquely Marienburg warband - the close-range shooting warband.

If you give one *Champion* Dueling Pistols and Crossbow Pistols with Pistoleer and the other one throwing knives, a bow, and quickshot and knifefighter (both will need weapons expert) and a few close combat skills like strike to injure you will, with care, be able to out-fight the shooters and out-shoot the fighters. Of course, that is not without risks and will take a fair amount of maneuvering and tactics, but then that is what we play for, right ? .

Given that one's leader is irreplaceable (i.e. you can't ever buy a replacement if he dies) I like to keep mine out of close-combat because it is *far* too fickle. Ask anyone on here how often their tooled up rat-ninja or slavering dual-wielding has charged, wiffed, and been taken out of action by a goblin with nothing more than a stick with a nail in it, or a f*****g giant rat! One giant rat! You would think it was a rabbit or something the way it was tearing wounds off it! *ahem*. Anyway... Oh yeah, ranged leaders. I must admit, this advice doesn't *purely* come from gaming considerations so take it with a grain of salt. I *really* like the image of my Marienburger leader armed with the most expensive gun in the game hanging back a bit and sniping key targets while guiding his men.

To get your 6th hero you need to have one of your henchmen roll a level-up called That Lad's Got Talent (TLGT - you will see it a bit around the boards if you haven't already). The henchman that gets this won't become a champion or anything - they will stay a Swordsman or marksman or what-have-you, you just rub them out of the henchman part of the sheet and put them on the hero part. Anyway when you do that you get to pick two skill tables and you will probably need to pick Combat and Strength just so you can have someone to focus on getting all the monster-killer abilities so they can punch through high-t or high armour save models like Possessed or Vampires or Dwarf lords. Keep him as safe as you can outside of that though, because TLGT heroes can't be just bought back.

One thing that took those in my group a little to adjust to is the idea that the starting weapons often have only a passing resemblance to what you will end up with. For example, your leader might start with the duelling pistols, but then give them to a champion when the champion starts getting the pistoling skills so perhaps your champion with two pistols model will be used for your leader for the first few games and stuff like that.

Because you are Marienburger, consider not taking marksmen or warriors at all, at least not until you have your TLGT hero. A Swordsman with a cross bow is just as good as a marksman, and better in a fight if he gets charged. The blunderbuss is a good idea, but as soon as a youngblood gets a skill, give him weapons training and then give it to him - then his bs won't matter and all kills you get with it will actually earn you xp.

Oh yeah, only heroes get xp from kills so the more chances they have to kill the better. Even if it is only the occasional chance here and there from a bow, it is still better than no chance at all.

Getting a buckler would be useful, but the main use for sword and buckler over sword and club is if you are against something that is pretty deadly and you are stalling to give your mates time to get over to help out. Worth it for your heroes, not so much on the henchmen to my mind.

Moffe: "a second sword (or a buckler) DOES in fact help, and its not negligible. the "parry" rule has the same effect (statistically) as a 6+ save that isnt modified by strength. The second sword (or buckler) allows you to reroll that save."

I just re-checked the rules, and we both appear to be half right and half wrong. Here is the relevant section from the revised rulebook:

If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once. (p. 21)

Personally, I'd go with sword and dagger or second hand weapon.

Lord O: "A Swordsman with a cross bow is just as good as a marksman, and better in a fight if he gets charged. The blunderbuss is a good idea, but as soon as a youngblood gets a skill, give him weapons training and then give it to him - then his bs won't matter and all kills you get with it will actually earn you xp.

True about Marienburger marksmen - I generally run Reiklanders, and with them the marksman is much superior. But don't give the youngblood the marksman's blunderbuss when the YB picks up Weapons Training - make him buy his own danged blunderbuss - the more the merrier! But a YB with a blunderbuss is a good thing. It is also a reason I like marksmen - if one of them is promoted, then he can also earn experience for kills with his big boom stick.

Yeah, you are right — that +1 bs is pretty tasty and makes them actually worth turning into heroes. In a Marienburg warband though, because the hero builds I tend to take often require getting weapons expert anyway, I might as well give them a blunderbuss as a backup.

Also, unlike Marienburgers, Reiklander champions are made of sterner stuff and have access to Strength skills so they don't have so much of a melee gap that needs to be plugged (Mighty Blow and Resilient make a *big* difference), freeing up their TLGT hero from being a melee hero to being a ranged hero.

Having only one hero that can cope with greeblies is still a lot better than having *no* heroes that can cope with greeblies.

Oh, Repeter, I have been assuming you are playing with no house-rules. Is this the case? Some of this will be a bit different if you are using some or more of the more common house rules. For example, sword and buckler is a good defensive combo, but if you are using the 'shields and bucklers get +1 in melee' then they are even better and the melee hero with the DHW, strong man, mighty blow, etc for taking down greeblies and punching through armour becomes more important also. If you are using a house rule that makes dual wielding more balanced then the sword/buckler becomes even more attractive.

Dual swords are nice on anyone with the skill Swordsman as it allows them to reroll missed hits on the charge and Swordsmen (unsurprisingly ) start with it.

Wow, I am really overwhelmed at the great advice offered up here--thank you so much folks. This is a very deep game and all the help from vets is key to me making a good first warband.

I am re-tooling my band and I'll be sure to post it when I get something...

Alrighty, let's have another go of this:

Captain: Brace of dueling pistols, sword, helmet (weird, random choice, I know, but I'll explain later)--130 crowns
Champ#1: Dueling pistol, sword--70 crowns
Champ#2: Deuling pistol, sword--70 crowns
Youngbuck#1: Bow, hammer--28 crowns
Youngbuck#2: Bow, hammer--28 crowns
Marksman #1: Xbow, hammer--53 crowns
Marksman #2: Xbow, hammer--53 crowns
Marksman #3: Blunderbuss, hammer--58 crowns
Swordsman #1: Sword, axe: 50 crowns
Swordsman #2: Sword, axe: 50 crowns

Total: 590 crowns

Queries and explanations:

1. Do Youngbloods need more of a melee weapon than their dagger? It seems, initially, I would do everything I could to keep them out of hand to hand contests.

2. Ok, the reason I put a helmet on my Captain is that my very cool wifey bought me the Finecast Empire dude with the Dueling pistol. Now, I would never have bought the mini myself, but now that I have it, I have some minor conversion ideas to make it a pretty sweet match for my Captain. The problem is that I like how the helmet looks and have decided to buy one for him in the game. I don't even know if would be any good (although it is fairly expensive!)...

3. When making this revised warband, I first took out the chaff from the first. I then added a blunderbuss (this was such a resoundingly repeating theme of the advice, I couldn't ignore it). I think I was left with 49 crowns, which I set out spending on melee weapons for the Youngbloods, extra melee for the Swordsmen, maybe a really expensive helmet... While arming these fellas up, I wondered if my money would be better spent on another Marksman, perhaps armed with a bow. I guess it boils down to: Would my Marienburg band be better with more troops or better weapons?

Thanks for the fantastic help folks!

Looks good .

1. I'd let the YBs have the second melee weapon. It is cheap, and they may be in melee (one tactic with YBs is to have them follow your swordsmen around and use them to take out anyone the swordsmen stun). Remember they are more effective in melee than with missile weapons: if they don't move and have a target in short range with no cover, they will hit him on a 5+. In melee, against even a WS 4 opponent, they will hit on a 4+. So for three gold, doubling a YB's attacks is a good idea.

2. That is a perfectly fine reason for giving the captain a helmet! (and yay for having a cool wifey who supports your gaming!).

3. More troops or better weapons - the endless debate. I think it is a factor of play style and perhaps the campaign, initially. My tendency is to start with more people in the warband. Swords are expensive and in terms of offensive capability a kitchen table leg is as effective (club, hammer, mace, etc.). Numbers are important in a melee - it is very effective to pile two on one since if Marienburger #1 knocks a guy down, the chances of Marienburger #2 taking him out of action go up dramatically. Also, I figure the more starting henchman I have, the more chances on a promotion I have after the second game... But the expensive crossbows and dueling pistols do increase the effectiveness of your warband (I assume from the fact that you are hanging on to two crossbows that your plan is to fort up the first few games rather than scamper all over the board). And swordsmen need swords – their ability to reroll misses with their sword on a round they charge is useful*. Plus, from on role-playing point of view, having a mid-seized but nicely-kitted out warband is consistent with the Marienburgers. So, while I would probably cut back on kit for an extra man or two, I think your approach is likely as effective and certainly appropriate for Marienburgers.

*You have 10 gp currently left, and you gave each of the swordsmen an axe as a second weapon = 10 gp for the pair of axes. That 20 gp could buy each swordsman an extra sword instead of an axe, allowing them to reroll misses with that attack too on a round they charge.

First I don't think you should have even bothered to justify yourself for taking a helmet. Helmets are great! Negating stuns is great! Sound tactics and economics in my book. My leaders always get helmets.

2 swords on swordsmen. This is an obvious tactic to us, even to the gold crown watchers in the group. Swordsmen are henchmen who come with a skill. If they attack with swords they can re-roll their misses. Since hitting is the only way for a henchman to wound an enemy we believe that more hits equal more wounds. Years of experience have not changed our belief.

Finally the YBs' bows should go to the Champions who can at least hit something. My YBs get the signiature weapon of the group, usually a sword, but if I'm strapped for cash I will start them with 2 daggers and upgrade later. I only give BS 2 warriors missile weapons when my choices for shooters sucks (like undead dregs.)

I mostly second what mweaver says! Power in numbers is very much the key to success in thecearly campaign. I would drop the bows from the youngbloods, and the axes of the swordsmen (you can always buy them more gear later!) and spend on a marksman with a longbow. Even with marienburgers you will probably want to go heavy on the ranged weapons...

Ok, I went with Folketsfiende's advice and hired on another Marksman, with a longbow. I mostly did this because I so wanted to use the bit from the Archer's box, holding the dead bird. I've posted some WIP pics of my warband here:

https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5650-building-some-marienburger-s

Commented on the models on the other thread.

You have a good warband design.

Good luck on Tuesday!

Sorry to res the thread, but I finally got my first game in. I played against another Marienburg warband that hadn't been going too long. That player had gone with a hunting rifle over significant henchmen numbers (I had 11 men, thanks to the great advice offered up here on Tom's). While the big gun funneled my warband into a slower advance, it never actually wounded anyone. We fought amoungst the ruins of an old chapel or state building (Battlefield in a Box's very cool ruined wall sets).

Despite the nerves that come with being unfamiliar, my lads did pretty well. I would've liked to have gotten my heroes more in the fight, but I was too worried about keeping them in the game so they could search later and make me some coin. I figured for the first couple games, this would be the prudent strategy. Anyway, here are some highlights:

1. My blunderbuss carrying marksman (Curly Tinhat), to whom my opponent remarked, "Hmm, no one uses those around here", bid his time until he had two targets lined up--he whiffed on the henchman to wound, but took the enemy captain out of the game with a critical!! Good job, Curly!

2. The swordsman, Blake Blutooth (so named for his rotten front tooth--not for carrying on, "handsfree") charged a Champion and mercilessly cut him down. I had meant to only knock him down or better--stun him so my following champ could gain some XP. Blutooth was overzealous, however, and his sword cut too deep.

3. My only hero to net a casualty, the Youngblood, Bucky faced down the opposing Youngblood (who enjoyed Sprint and Step Aside). This poor enemy--after the game, he rolled for 'multiple injuries'. He is now missing three games, has a broken leg and a second battle scar!

4. My warband found 5 Wyrdstane shards, netting me 80gc. I also found a Market Hall, which snagged me another 10gc. Everyone in the warband survived and got an XP, and Bucky and Captain Amerigo each got 2 XP. Bucky leveled up and rolled for +1 STR. Not bad, right?

My warband's coffers are now spilling over with 93gc, which is burning a hole in my pocket. How to spend it?!?!? I was thinking I'd take 30gc right off and buy my two swordmen extra swords and my captain a Lucky Charm. I do know that I won't be paying a whole lot of attention at work today while I think it over...

I just wanted to give you folks here at Tom the Boring's a big thanks--your advice really helped me come up with a well-rounded starting warband. My next foray into the ruins is next Tuesday--maybe I can get some paint on a man or two by then...

Thanks for the update (I had wondered how they were doing), and congratulations!

A lucky charm for Capt. Amerigo and extra swords for the swordsmen both sound like reasonable purchases.

Are you playing any house rules for armor? Perhaps starting to work on armor for the captain is a possibility. Also, the champions only have one dueling pistol apiece, at this point.

Lucky charms for the other heroes are something you need to pick up as well - not necessarily a priority purchase right now, since you are trying to hold them back a bit...

But whatever, I would recommend you hold back a reserve - at least 40 g.c. After the next game all of your henchmen (except of course any who go to carouse in that Big Tavern in the Sky) will earn an experience roll, and I usually try to have enough money after game two that I can "clone" a henchman who has a particularly good advancement (a marksman who rolls +1 BS, a swordsman who rolls +1 attack, etc.).

I would also recommend looking into rabbit's feet for your heroes. A reroll is good to have, and if you find no use for it in-game, it can be used to reroll an exploration die. It's also a good idea to keep the warband expanding, so why not buy a new member? You're still a few marksmen short...

Good luck in the continued campaign!

I'd buy the next henchman after game two, so you can clone a guy who gets a good advancement. The 4 g.c. you'll pay for a second BS 4 marksman instead of a new BS 3 marksman is worth it!

Rabbit's Feet are indeed useful.

Personally, I love swords (and occasionally bucklers) on Youngbloods. Their low WS means that opponents are hitting them on 3s instead of 4s... but the Parry just has to roll higher than the attacker's dice roll. Therefore, in some strange way, the youngbloods are better at parrying attacks than champions.

StyrofoamKing wrote:

Therefore, in some strange way, the youngbloods are better at parrying attacks than champions.

I am not so sure that is the case. Assuming a warrior of WS3 attacking:

Chance to dodge/parry

Attack roll of 2
Youngblood: 100%
Champion: 100%

Attack roll of 3
Youngblood: 50%
Champion: 100%

Attack roll of 4
Youngblood: 33%
Champion: 33%

Remember, parrying isn't just about knocking their blow out of the way, sometimes all you have to do is just knock it away enough for you to get out of the way - you are not really parrying per se, it is just helping you dodge the blow in the first place.

I can't help but feel that telling someone a youngblood is better at parrying than a champion is kind of like telling somone the new type of helmet sucks because now you are getting more troops with head wounds.

That being said, I like to give swords to my youngbloods because being a defensive weapon they let the YB stay alive longer and give enough time for someone that knows what they are doing to get into combat.

Also, I play Marienburgers for my merc warband so only the most expensive weapons for my heroes .

Rabbits' feet all around is a very good thing, likewise holding on to a buffer to replace things. However, before that ROPES AND HOOKS FOR EVERYONE! I swear, they are the piece of equipment that saves the life of my heroes more than any other. Even my *Skaven* aren't too proud to get ropes and hooks and it saves *them* too. The options it gives you and the number of times it will save your damn-fool heroes breaking their damn-fool knecks, well, you will see.

Remember, a rabbit's foot allows you to reroll *any* dice in the exploration phase - not just how many shards you get. Rolling to see how many crossbows you get from a 444 fletcher and only get a 1? Reroll it. Rolling how much gold you get from a 11111 moneylender and only roll a 1? Reroll it. Roll 222222 hidden treasure and don't get an artifact? reroll it.

Cathayan silks are also useful and a very characterful thing to get for a Marienburg warband, but that is more for game 3 or 4.