goblins and spiders

hey guys,
another question for the minds of mordheim, in the rules for the ride skill it states "warriors which come provided with a riding animal are assumed to posses the ride skill already."(pg 24 EiF) and i was looking at the forest goblin list, which lets you take a gigantic spider, and the cheiftain can ride the spider. So assming that the warband starts off with a cheif and a gigantic spider can it be assumed that he would have the ride skill for a gigantic spider?

I wouldn't assume that. It doesn't really quite fully imply that the Chieftain can ride the spider without buying the ride skill.

The quote from EOF with emphasis is "warriors which come provided with a riding animal". The Chieftain does not come provided with the spider as they are purchased seperately.

But someone from the Nemesis Crown development team can correct me.

The "Ride" skill was added to the game later with the "Blazing Saddles" article (see Mordheim Annual and Empire in Flames ["Mounted Warriors"]). Before that, i.e. in the original rulebook, you just had to buy a horse, no need to learn how to use it. Some Hired Swords (actually only the Freelancer Knight I think) already started with a horse, so when the Ride skill was introduced, this clause prevented confusion and it is only logical.

Mounts are equipment and all models who start the campaign with a mount when hired have the apropriate skill automatically. This usually only affects Hired Swords and Dramatis Personae, as they come with equipment. Heroes (and Henchmen) do not come equipped. You must choose weapons and armour for them explicitly and thus they do not start with the ride skill. Some Heroes may have miscellaneous items in their equipment list and so may start the campaign with them. If they have a mount in their equipment list, then they may start the campaign with that mount. Technically they do not "come with the mount" though so they still need to learn the ride skill.

So what about the Forest Goblins?

The Chieftain does not come with a Ride skill. However, the Giant Spider's special rule is called "May Ride"... to me that sounds like a "passive" version of "Ride", providing the same effect, i.e. being ridden without a penalty. Something to keep in mind here is that the Forest Goblins were written for the Lustria setting originally, but they were not published in the Town Cryers and they eventually found their re-release in the Nemesis Crown supplement. I am not sure, but maybe the warband was written before the Blazing Saddles article, or with it being still new. So maybe the original author wasn't aware of the Ride skill. Actually the rules strongly suggest so, because they refer to the "Optional Rules" for riding, which is the chapter in the back of the Mordheim rulebook. Remember, when using those old and original rules you didn't have to learn to ride.

Judging from that point of view and with that semi-valid interpretation of "May Ride" I'd say that the Chieftain does not have to learn the Ride skill for the spider as that is most likely the intention of the author.

Yeah, that's what i was thinking, but i thought i should come on here and see what the more knowledgeable folks had to say, well thanks a bunch guys.

I could go for that. The special rule of May Ride supercedes any riding rules (like other special rules over ride other standard rules). It's a fairly limited in that it only applies to the Chieftain and only the somewhat expensive Gigantic Spider (not Giant Spider Mount).

cianty wrote:

Actually the rules strongly suggest so, because they refer to the "Optional Rules" for riding, which is the chapter in the back of the Mordheim rulebook.

That isn't exactly what's written--"The Forest Goblin Chieftain, may ride the Gigantic Spider, if you are using the optional rules for mounts". The term "optional rules" is not the same as "Optional Rules" (or, specifically "Optional Rules for Mounted Warriors") as the lack of capitalization implies that it isn't refering to a specific rule. BUT if the band was written for Lustria, then the author must have been referring to those specific rules since they were the only rules in existance at the time.

The intent of the author is the most important factor in interpreting rules (and what the play testers interpretation was); much more important than our dissection of what is written. So I think cianty is right. PLUS the Goblin Warboss on Gigantic Spider is a super awesome model.

I KNOW! i really wanna get one, if i like the way this warband plays imma have to start buying the minis for it.

perfesser wrote:

The term "optional rules" is not the same as "Optional Rules" (or, specifically "Optional Rules for Mounted Warriors") as the lack of capitalization implies that it isn't refering to a specific rule.

Note that not all authors follow this rule. From the context it's clear that the optional rules for mounted warriors are meant here.


Anyways, I have been talking to the chaps from the dev team and the consensus is that:

1. You should apply the extended rules for mounted warriors as presented in the "Blazing Saddles" article in the Mordheim Annual.
This means that the Chieftain does indeed need the "Ride Gigantic Spider" skill.

2. Give the Chieftain the "Ride Gigantic Spider" skill.
(Because the author didn't mean to require the Chieftain to learn a skill in order to ride the spider)

See also--

https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/monsterous-mounts-in-mordheim-t2495.htm#36439

I can also see it depending on the campaign setting. Open field settings and mount heavy campaigns (EiF, NC, BtB, Mousillon) could definitely include it as a freebie, while more closed campaigns (Mord, Sartosa, Karak Azghal) would definitely not. For Lustria, Khemri, and Relics, I could see it going either way.

UPDATE:
The Forest Goblins warband has been officially updated (see here) to solve and clarify this issue. Now you can go spider riding!