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 X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?

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PostSubject: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Fri 31 Aug 2012 - 23:49

Hey everyone!
I just had a tryout with Witch Hunters the other day, and a question came up during gameplay that I haven't considered at all!

"How do the Crossbox Pistols work excatly?", my fellow player asked... And I was a big Question

I've read through previous posts, and they argue that crossbow pistols works as normal pistols in all aspects, EXCEPT when in hth-combat and reloading.

In the wording I could extrapolate following rulings:

1. Hits first in hth-combat, hence to ruling on this attack being resolved before any other blows is made. AND since it's a part of a HTH-combat phase, it is not possible to KD/Stun with the xbow, then execute the enemy with a 2-handed weapon ect.
2. I'll have to have the pistoleer special skill in order to fire two xbows in one turn
3. The -2 to hit modifier is applied to any cases of HtH-combat, ie. when charging you apply an additional -1 to hit for movement (it is a ranged weapon and has to be treated as such), and if charged, only the -2 to hit is applied.
4. Cannot be parried, since the rulings imply that the means to hit is by BS, and a parry is done agains WS.

I might have forgotten a couble of facts, but the above is what concerns me the most and I need ANSWERS!! Razz

I love the idea of having a bloke, with xbow pistol, kd/stunn the charger and then take him out with a 2-hander *SLAM* but is this even legal in vanilla rulings?

How do you play the xbow pistol?

Please discuss with rule arguments please study
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 4:28

1. In my group we played that it is possible, in a hth-combat, to fire x-bow pistols and then switch to, for instance, a 2-hand weapon. Since the x-bow pistol attack is a "bonus attack in addition to any close combat attcks".
I have actually never thought it to be illiegal, though I'll give you that it is cheesy. Cool I might have to take it up again, and have my friends look at the ruling again with me.
2. Yes. Yes, you do. As per skill description. However you cannot fire both in hth, as the skill only confers "fire twice in the shooting phase".
3. I agree.
4. Correct again.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 4:58

1. As far as I can make out, that is how it works. Certainly it is how my group plays it.
2. Pistoleer will let you fire both in the shooting phase. RAW you don't need any skill at all to shoot both of them in the close-combat phase (the limit to only one shooting weapon is technically for the shooting phase only), but you may want to make a house-rule that you need the skill to fire both in the close-combat phase also.
3. This is the case also. You would also apply penalties for darkness, flies, bonuses for size, etc.
4. The way we have played it is that it cannot be parried, but nor does it force you to waste your parry on it. I can't say where this comes from.

The idea you have is legal with the vanilla rules, so long as by 'take out' you mean 'roll to hit and wound normally'.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 7:44

First of all thanks alot for your responses - Really appriciated!

I like the house rule you both purpose that Pistoleer skill has to be taken in order to use two xbow pistols at once, regardless of the type of combat (shooting or HtH-combat).

Lord O wrote:

The idea you have is legal with the vanilla rules, so long as by 'take out' you mean 'roll to hit and wound normally'.

So if I understand you correctly, it is not possible to first KD/Stun the opponent with the xbow pistol, and then wound/announce attack against the downed opponent with a CC-weapon? Do I have to hit as well in CC even though the opponent is KD or stunned?
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 9:01

I would say, that hit from crossbow pistol can be parried - crossbow pistol is fired in CC, after all. Besides, situation is quite alike as with regular pistols - models are base to base and it doesn't matter whether Bs or Ws was used to score a hit.

Now this thread made me wonder. I always thought that model armed with a brace of crossbow pistols fires twice in CC, even though he can shoot only once during shooting phase. Hence, my question. Is pistolier skill required to shoot twice in CC using a brace of crossbow pistols?
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 13:42


The cannot be parried is not an 'official' rule. The Parry rule works against the highest roll to hit in the melee phase. Attacks that can not be parried are listed in the rules as 'can not be parried'. The crossbow pistol's attacks do not have this designation, nor was it added in an FAQ I am aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 13:54

I agree that the crossbow pistol should be able to be parried, but since the "to-hit" roll is in BS, I fail to see how this should be done. On the fluff side, I interpret the attack to be inbetween fighting. ie when charging the x-bow pistol is shot in the charge run, hence to the difficulty to hit, and vice versa when being charged, the model gets surpriced by the sudden threat and graps his/her belt for the xbow pistol, and in the desperat attempt to make a lucky hit, swings the pistol forward also a difficult move to accomplish... just fluff Razz

I believe RAW that you ARE able to fire 2x xbow-pistols in the first round of HtH-combat, but I do purpose, as Lord O and Louis, that it might be house ruled to limited to a single shot and have the pistoleer skill enable the dual shot in HtH.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 14:20

I understand that the to hit roll is made using BS. I don't understand what difference this makes to the parry rule which does not refer to WS or BS when referencing hits.

There is no mention of a crossbow pistol attack having the rule 'Cannot be parried' in the rulebook or FAQs that I have seen (there seem to be endless FAQs.)
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 15:16

I have another question. Everyone seems to agree that shooting penalties (i.e. movement) apply to crossbow pistol. Is it only because X-bow pistols use Bs? Regular pistols don't have such difficulties.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 15:35

Yes it is because crossbow pistols use BS to hit when fired in melee. An ill conceived special rule that causes nothing but trouble apparently.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sat 1 Sep 2012 - 15:37

That is because reg. pistols are used with WS, and the "penalties" for that is the defenders WS.
The x-bow pistol is descibed as having "an extra -2 to-hit modifer in hth-combat". Therefore normal penalties for shooting must also apply. I'm guessing range does not, because the models are base-to-base when the rolls are done.

I see the point about being able to parry a x-bow pistol. And I'm convinced it is legal.
However, since its a -2 penalty (at best) to hit, the shooter needs to have at least BS 4, in order to have hit on a 5, which is the highest roll that can be parried.
In my experience most x-bow pistol hits are scored on a 6 or not at all, due to penalties. Hence making parry impossible.

I have another question. Lets say the x-bow pistol guy charges, or is charged by, a guy with a 2-handed sword (or two hand weapons) and a shield (for save vs shooting attacks).
Does he still get the save vs the x-bow pistol shot, since the attack is a shooting attack, or has he switched to his close combat weapons as soon as we hit hth-phase?
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 3:24

Quote :
That is because reg. pistols are used with WS, and the "penalties" for that is the defenders WS.
The x-bow pistol is descibed as having "an extra -2 to-hit modifer in hth-combat". Therefore normal penalties for shooting must also apply. I'm guessing range does not, because the models are base-to-base when the rolls are done.
I disagree. It's not a normal shooting. That "extra -2" means that he's not shooting wit his full BS, not "extra -2 in addition to other modifiers". AND remember that you can't fire missle weapons at all after charging.
Quote :
have another question. Lets say the x-bow pistol guy charges, or is charged by, a guy with a 2-handed sword (or two hand weapons) and a shield (for save vs shooting attacks).
Does he still get the save vs the x-bow pistol shot, since the attack is a shooting attack, or has he switched to his close combat weapons as soon as we hit hth-phase?
No he does not unless he declares using a shield. Even if it's shooting attack they are still in CC so he must declare what he's using.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 4:01

catachanfrog wrote:
AND remember that you can't fire missle weapons at all after charging.
What makes you think this?
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 4:41

Just checked ranged and charge sections of the rulebook. Of course, It mentions that missile weapons cannot be fired in CC, but Xbow pistols are quite an obvious exception to that.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 4:50

Quote :
What makes you think this?
Rules?
Quote :
who can shoot
Each model can shoot once in the shooting phase, so
long as he can see a target and assuming he has a
suitable weapon. He may not fire in the following
circumstances: if he is engaged in hand-to-hand
combat
, has run or failed a charge in the movement
phase, has rallied this turn or is stunned or knocked
down.
So regardless of charge effect you cannot shoot.
Quote :

but Xbow pistols are quite an obvious exception to that.
They are the ONLY exception. "Obvious" is not popular word in Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 6:10

Ok, it seems that this thread actually CAN be debated. How about make some static line use and interpretation of this weapon. I see Cianty has closed down the rule revision thread, perhaps this weapon should be taken into consideration? I know it's not the most used weapon, but I believe that when there's so much confusion about it, people might be reluctant to actually choose this weapon.

To clarify the summmed statements:


* You should be able to parry a crossbow pistol, as you can a pistol ( regard the dice roll for shooting to count as a Close combat hit (ie. the model is needed a 5 to hit with the crossbow pistol, so the opponent may parry this hit by rolling a 6)

* A minus modifier is added exactly the same way as if the model was shooting (ie. running, Elf cloak, ect) (or did I misunderstand this?)

* When charging with a Crossbow pistol, the opponents must choose which weapon setting he/she wants before the fight, to take armor save modifieres into consideration (ie. "should I fight with a knife and shield, or my 2-handed beast of a weapon?")



I guess this sums it up. Though I'd love to have one of my previous questions answered Razz

"Can a crossbow pistol wearing witch hunter, Knockdown or stun an opponent before HtH-combat with the crossbow pistol, and then use his two-handed sword to take him out in the same round of combat? (ie. rolling to wound when knockdowned, or annonce the attack if stunned)
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Sun 2 Sep 2012 - 11:20

It may seem unlikely, but your question is discussed at length here--

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t6632-sisters-of-sigmar-steel-whips
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 3:52

Great thanks a lot for the reference! I'll go with the have to hit with the following attacks despite the result of the xbox pistol. It makes sense. thanks a lot to all of you for your inputs!
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 7:21

With X-Bow pistols (and Blackpowder/Warplock pistols as well), we've used the "stand and shoot' rules from WFB, and followed those rules as written, since the Mordheim rules were confusing to us as well. If the shot hit and wounded, and the model hit was KD/Stunned, we'd place the downed model at max range away from the shooter, and consider it a failed charge. Needless to say this made pistols a VERY popular choice!
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 3 Sep 2012 - 19:28

Doh! That is an elegant way of using a Warhammer rule to solve a Mordheim problem. I do like it for the crossbow pistol at least... Hmmm.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 8:58

What skill shoud be used versus xbow pistol shot in cc? Dodge or step aside?
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 12:02

If it's in Close Combat, then the RAW state that it is Step Aside.
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Mon 10 Sep 2012 - 15:10

Not sure here, some may say that it's still ranged attack so dodge would apply. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: X-bow Pistols - How do they work excatly?   Tue 11 Sep 2012 - 4:10

They can if they like, but the rule book is pretty unambiguous

LRB, Close Combat wrote:
Models fighting in hand-to-hand combat do not shoot
in the shooting phase. They are far too busy fighting
for their lives. Any very close range shots they are able
to make using pistols are treated like close combat
weapon attacks
(see the Weapons & Armour section).
(emphasis added).
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