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Spectre



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PostSubject: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 2:55

Just wanting to get some thoughts on Steel whips.

Steel whips allow a model to strike first when charged with a bonus attack.
If their initiative is higher than the charger, this means that they can (with some luck) take out (stun/knockdown) the charger before the charger can strike them.

But the question is:
What happens with the normal profile attacks? Can they use the remaining attacks to instantly OOA a knocked down model?
My problem with this is that the rules specifically state:

Note that a model with multiple attacks may not
stun/knock down and then automatically take a
warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand
combat phase.

I don't think they should be able to use the remaining attacks to instantly take someone OOA. But is it fair to require them to roll to hit/wound a target who is already down?
Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated (As well as any house rules that may apply)

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 3:44

We figured they acted as a hand crossbow in melee. Attempting a single attack, before the "real" fighting issues. We don't have any sister in our campaign currently, and the Dark elves have yet to use their beast lash, so we haven't tested this yet.
I'd think id makes sense to let the model roll to hit and wound as normal, even if the opponent is knocked down or stunned by the whip. But as said we haven't tested it yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 3:54

I used a Sisters warband vs a friends dwarves, I got the charge onto 4 models in 1 turn, and managed to take 2 down to the ground with the additional attack. We talked about it, and houseruled that you still have to roll to hit and wound, but assuming both suceed, you dont roll injuries, they are instead taken out automatically.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 6:17

Welcome to the forum!

You can call your application of the rule a house rule, but you are just following the rules as written. There are several out of sequence attacks like whips, the spines mutation or the Saurus' bite attack, but all of them are covered by the above rule.

Rolling to hit, wound and injure is not unfair it is just following the rules. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 12:51

Von Kurst is right. It’s the rules. It’s the turn sequence that may seem confusing. With the Strike First ability of the Steel Whip, you’ve stunned the charger on the Charger’s turn. Then on you’re turn the model is still stunned, attacking the stunned model, making it OOA. You’re not Stunning and OOA the same model on the same attack. It was stunned on the other player’s turn, now it your turn. OOA!
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 13:28

OK, assuming that the sister has higher initiative and assuming she knocks down or stuns her opponent, what happens to any other attacks she has in the charger's turn? Let's assume she has a hammer in her off hand. Does she lose this attack?

I'd say she gets to swing the hammer, but because she cannot "stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase" she has to roll to wound a knocked down opponent. If she does, she then rolls on the injury table. In the case of a stunned opponent, who would normally simply be OOAd, I'd say she gets to roll on the injury table.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 15:38

Quote :
OK, assuming that the sister has higher initiative and assuming she knocks down or stuns her opponent, what happens to any other attacks she has in the charger's turn? Let's assume she has a hammer in her off hand. Does she lose this attack?

I'd tend to agree with Citizen Sade, if Knocked down, any attacks hit automatically, if stunned roll on the injury chart?
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 23:31

Negative,
the rule specifically says "Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase."
If youre following the rules verbatim, its quite clear here.

These other bonus attacks are treated no differently than Weapons with Init bonuses (ilthimar). It says in the same Combat Phase, not the same Combat Step. The rulebook clarifies that a Phase is the entire round of combat in that turn.

So if that initial attack knocks the person down, or stuns them, you still get your remaining attacks, but theyre resolved as normal attacks. Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, then Injury roll.

Now if you have two models in this combat, and Model A stuns the enemy with this charge attack bonus, Model B could take the free kill when B's iniiative step comes up.

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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 10 Jul 2012 - 23:59

Quote :
Negative

If you have to roll dice to do it, you are not automatically taking your opponent OOA.

The whip's strike first rule complicates things. If a sister downs someone who charges her, I still maintain she simply needs to roll to wound and/or injure her opponent . This is because her remaining attacks are not strike first and they are targeted against an enemy who is already down. If the sister charges, she has to roll to hit, wound and injure with all attacks as they are all strike first.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Wed 11 Jul 2012 - 7:31

Quote :
If you have to roll dice to do it, you are not automatically taking your opponent OOA.
No you aren't since the rules do not allow you to.

As noted above there are several different rules that can cause a model to have to split its attacks during a combat. Strikes first attacks from a whip are one of those instances. There are also attacks that strike last like the saurus bite attack.

When using the rules as written the model with a strikes first just makes its regular (non-strikes first) attacks when allowed. Those attacks must roll to hit, wound and injure.

The strikes first or strikes last are special instances but are still occuring in the same combat phase, thus they can not cause automatic out of actions.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Wed 11 Jul 2012 - 12:52

Let's approach this in a different way, shall we? Let's start with points of agreement. We do have some (Yay us!). Firstly, that a model cannot automatically OOA an opponent that it downed in the same combat phase. Secondly, that a model makes any non-strike first attacks when allowed to by the rules. So far, so good. Unfortunately, we appear to be pretty far apart on everything else, but maybe an example will help?

An I4 sister superior with a whip and a hammer is charged by an I3 Reikland warrior with axe and mace. The sequence of attacks should be:
1) The sister's whip attack because it is a strike first weapon and she has higher initiative.
2) The Reiklander's axe and mace attack because he has strike first through charging.
3) The sister's hammer attack.

Now let's imagine that the sister gets lucky and knocks down the Reiklander with her whip attack. What happens next?

You say she has to roll to hit, wound and injure him. Why? Doesn't the whip attack happen before all others and, if so, why would the effect (i.e. the knock down) be ignored for later attacks? If, as I maintain, the effect should not be ignored, it seems to me that my position is closer to RAW than yours because it uses the standard roll to wound - roll to injure knocked down opponents mechanism rather than a non-standard roll to hit - roll to wound - roll to injure one and it does not break the 'cannot automatically OOA' rule (because dice rolling is involved and there is no guarantee that the chap on the ground will actually be OOAd). That said, I remain open to being convinced that I am wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Wed 11 Jul 2012 - 14:31

It's still the same combat phase and restriction applies. It doesn't work like let's say soulfire or word of pain spell that allows caster to stunn/kd warrior in shooting phase and then allows finish him in hth combat phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Wed 11 Jul 2012 - 16:47

While I agree that it's still the same combat phase and that it doesn't work like spells, you're going to have to explain what restrictions apply that I have not considered plus why they do if you want to convince me.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Wed 11 Jul 2012 - 19:48

I am now trapped in the limbo of 'Does an FAQ apply?' So far I can't find one that does although I thought there was an explanation of how a saurus bite attack worked somewhere...

Took me a few readings of this thread to figure out what I didn't get about this question. Now that I'm on the page, I'm hoping somebody has another perspective.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 0:33

@Citizen Sade... very good explanation of the problem being discussed. Smile

First I will say that I don't know what would be the closest to the official ruling.

I think that from a purely logical sequence the subsequent attacks should be treated like attacking a KD or stunned model and would therefore allow a form of automatic OOA. However, from a balance perspective I think that it is best to roll for everything again (hit, wound, injury). It would be my preference to roll for that 'second round' of attacks.

The problem as I see it affects the following:
* Steel Whip (official) - grants 'strike first'
* Saurus bite attack (unofficial) - always strikes last
* Obsidian weapons (BTB - unofficial) - strikes last
* Spines (official) - strikes first (sort of)
* Crossbow pistol (official) - strikes first (sort of)

I would hope that the ruling provided/houserule would correctly fit all of the above. Has anyone done a search on this forum. I am sure that this would have been discussed previously. I am on a tea break at work so I currently don't have time to look through historical threads.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 1:34

"Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase."

You guys are trying to find a loop hole to get around a very clearly written rule. It says you cant do it, and youre digging for reasons as to why you can. My gaming group is a bunch of rules nazis that tear apart everything and we ve never even thought about discussing this one.

The term AUTOMATICALLY works like this.
When theyre stunned, you auto take them out of action.
When theyre knocked down, you roll to wound, then AUTOMATICALLY take them out of action.
its not a typo, and theres no issue here. It means that the Injury Roll is not required, as its all automatic



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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 3:18

Restrictions -
Quote :
Note that a model with multiple attacks may not
stun/knock down and then automatically take a
warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand
combat phase.
Citizen Sade - I totally agree with Zekk. You're ignoring above mentioned rule and it clearly states that you cannot stun/kd someone with one attack and then finish him with another no matter what. Unless you roll OoA on injuries, rest of your attacks can only be used to achieve better result following normal attacking rules (first roll to hit and then to wound).


Last edited by catachanfrog on Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 3:23; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 3:18

Quote :
"Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase."

The Problem is, that this rule just say, you have to roll for injury. It doesn't say anything about automaticly hit (and automaticly wound for stunned enemies).

I prefer the "roll all dice"-approach, that you have to hit, to wound and to roll for injury´.
A good houserule would be "A modell cannot profit from his own injury rolls in the same combat phase".

you can get the same effekt with 2 weapons if one of them is made from ithilmar or a mutation withan extra arm and a two handed weapon and a normal weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 4:40

Zekk wrote:
The term AUTOMATICALLY works like this.
When theyre stunned, you auto take them out of action.
When theyre knocked down, you roll to wound, then AUTOMATICALLY take them out of action.
its not a typo, and theres no issue here. It means that the Injury Roll is not required, as its all automatic
Which is why I have been proposing that injury rolls are made so that opponents are not "AUTOMATICALLY" OOAd.

For my understanding, please explain the basis for your opinion that you need to roll to hit, wound and injure an opponent who has already been downed earlier in the combat phase.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 10:30

VS Knocked Down: Auto Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Injure. This is breaking process for a lot of the combat procedures. the game would specify if this was the case.

VS Stunned: There are currently no rules for striking a stunned opponent. It simply states that the warrior is at your mercy and is automatically taken OOA. No mention of hitting and wounding, or automatically hitting, and automatically wounding. Just says... Dead. No rules for striking a stunned opponent at all. To require rolls to strike a stunned opponent would be writing a whole new set of rules. Rules that would have been otherwise stated in the core rules had this been the issue.

The subsequent attacks after that initial strike are not being struck against a Stunned / Knocked down opponent. Theyre resolved against the model as if it were standing who Will be stunned/knocked down if those extra attacks fail.


That all having been said, the games rules are grey enough as it is. its not our duty to convince you otherwise with an interpretation. Your group can do what you want. The point of these forums is to clarify some rules, or just show what other people/groups are doing. In this case, it seems a majority of the players here are using the rule the same way I described. With my group, when a grey area comes up, I read what others are doing on here, take the majority vote, and go with that (within reason). Only once have I found an issue where the majority was wrong!





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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 16:31

Zekk wrote:
Rules that would have been otherwise stated in the core rules had this been the issue.
Laughing You have much more faith in the competence and thoroughness of those responsible for the rules development than I do. I will, however, concede that most people appear to play it like you do.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Thu 12 Jul 2012 - 17:40

I do, actually. While the game was still active, they supported it quite well, with plenty of Errata and FAQs to fix issues. For a game as complex as mordheim, i think they did a great job, much better than some of the non GW games out there of similar taste.

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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Fri 13 Jul 2012 - 10:05

I think that, while it is not explicitly stated in this rule, the spirit (and probably intended purpose) of this rule is that attacks in a round of combat happen in such quick succession that no advantage can be gained from multiple attacks by stacking the injury effects.

So your Sister lands a blow with the whip stopping the charger from getting their attacks in then follows it up a split second later with the rest of her attacks before the charger succumbs their injuries.
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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Mon 23 Jul 2012 - 9:06

Actually I would argue that according to the rules, you cannot attack a model at all, if you have already knocked it down or stunned in the same HtH phase.

If you are attacking a stunned model, the rules dictate how this is done: “A stunned model is automatically taken out of action if an enemy can attack him in hand-to-hand combat”

If you have stunned the model in the same round, the following rule (quoted many times already) takes effect:
“Note that a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to have more than one of your models attacking the same enemy.”

This means you are not able to follow the rules of attacking a stunned model, and since no alternatives are given, this means you are not able to attack it according to RAW.

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PostSubject: Re: Sisters of Sigmar + Steel Whips   Tue 24 Jul 2012 - 19:58

actually, Id have to side with Rytter on that one.
his interpretation is as close to raw rules as it gets!

+1
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