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 clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols

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GuttedRunner
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PostSubject: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 13:16

I know its a much debated question but couldnt find a clear answer so I want to know how do you play it cause it seems overpowered to me :
a warrior with the Pistolier skill is equipped with a brace of pistols and 2 hand-weapons, he charges :
does he get to shoot twice and then swap to his hand-weapons and hit twice again in the same turn ?



Last edited by GuttedRunner on Thu 16 Dec 2010 - 4:29; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 13:37

Mordheim Rules Review version 7 wrote:
Page 122, Pistolier
Replace the second sentence of the description with:
“If he is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols), he may fire twice in the Shooting phase (though note that normal reloading rules apply). If he has a single pistol then he may fire it in the same turn it was reloaded.”
Emphasis mine. So, pistolier only works in the shooting phase. In your example, the warrior gets to fight in the first round of combat with a pistol in each hand for two attacks or with his two hand weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 13:43

Agreed. And while you can SPELLCAST and fight in the same turn, you can't SHOOT and fight in the same turn. The only weapon that lets you do both (shoot AND fight) is the Crossbow Pistol, which specifically says so.

Outside of shooting phase, pistols are pretty much fancy clubs that give the user S4, Armor Save -1 in the first round of combat.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 13:59

You would charge and then in the combat phase you would make 2 BS attack, but treat it like it was a WS attack vs their WS. Then the next round you would swap to the 2 melee weapons and fight as normal.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 14:06

ok thanks for that, very clear.
then the hypothesis of a charge with a brace of crossbow pistols and 2 hand-weapons (with Pistolier) should allow 1 shot and then 2 attacks ?
what if the target is stunned by the crossbow pistol then hit by a sword ? Is it OOA ? As you could argue both attacks didnt happen in the same phase...
I'd say no but would like to hear it from someone else.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Wed 15 Dec 2010 - 22:43

Yes, that's the way we play it i.e. you only get one close combat attack with a crossbow pistol (even if you have a brace of them), pistolier is ignored (as that only applies in the shooting phase) and you get your normal attacks with your hand weapons.

Regarding your 'Is it OOA?' question, take a look at the special rule for crossbow pistols on page 30 of the rulebook:
Quote :
Shoot in hand-to-hand combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use model’s Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks.

My interpretation is that the charger's crossbow pistol shot is in the close combat phase just like his hand weapon attacks. As "a model with multiple attacks may not stun/knock down and then automatically take a warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand combat phase" (page 21 of the rulebook), you roll to hit and wound as normal with your hand weapon attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Thu 16 Dec 2010 - 5:33

The way we play it, two Crossbowpistols allow for two additional attacks in CC, but that is just our interpretation, the rules aren't really specific imo. And, if stunned, the opponent is not automatically ooa, that is rather clear in the book.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Thu 16 Dec 2010 - 7:12

pistol's special rule clearly precises the use of a brace of pistols whereas crossbow pistol doesnt, so my interpretation is 2 crossbow pistols only give 1 additional attack.

your interpretation make a witch hunter captain with +1BS and a brace of crossbow pistols a major threat, but if it suits your gaming crew, fine,it could even be a welcome and needed boost to the witch hunters.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Thu 16 Dec 2010 - 7:31

You only get 1 ranged attack per round, unless you get a skill that allows you more then 1 attack like quick shot or Pistolier. In melee you have at least 1 attack, and then if you have two melee weapons you get a bonus attack. Now those ranged attack skills have No Effect in hand to hand. Pistols and crossbow pistols can be used in both Melee and ranged fighting so there can be confusion about which skills work when.

Prepare shot: A duelling pistol takes a complete turn to reload, so your model may only fire every other turn. If he has a brace of duelling pistols he may fire every turn.

Save modifier: Duelling pistols are even better at penetrating armour than their Strength 4 suggests. A warrior wounded by a duelling pistol must make his armour save with a -2 modifier.


Hand-to-hand: Duelling pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as well as for shooting. A model armed with a duelling pistol and another close combat weapon gains 1 Attack, which is resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a brace of duelling pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a model’s Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are resolved at Strength 4 and with a -2 save modifier, regardless of the firer’s Strength.


The flaws are worded strangely. But the way I understand them is this:

Prepare shot means that you can only fire every other round while in ranged combat and that you need 1 whole round to reload. In melee you can only fire once, then you need a whole round to reload, but while in melee you are spending the round fighting. The models don't take a break, and let the other one reload while the other turn phases are going on.

If you read Prepared shot by itself it sounds like each pistol can be fired every other round, so if you have a brace you are firing every round, switching the pistol and reload the other one. Which in ranged combat is 100% how it works. I think that this is a little counter intuative. If I can shoot 1 pistol and reload the other pistol then why can't I shoot and reload the same pistol. The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's too hot, but that really doesn't explain Crossbow pistols. I think it's more of a game balance thing.

Now Hand to Hand is also poorly worded. What it is trying to say is that if you have 2 weapons, like a club and a pistol, or 2 pistols then you get an bonus attack, and that bonus attack has the same strength and armor save modifer as it does when you are making a ranged attack. If you are using 2 pistols then you get 2 attacks (1 normal and 1 bonus) using the pistol stats for strength and armor save modifer, during the first round of combat. It never really says what happens after the first round, but I take it to mean that you would look at the Prepared Shot rule, so you would still need a round to reload. Which while in melee you cannot do because the other guy is right there swing his melee weapons at you.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Thu 16 Dec 2010 - 11:14

to the question if he can stun a model with the crossbow-pistol and auto-ooA him in closecombat:

that is not possible, as the xbp-shots are also resolved in the cc-phase.

as a single model can never auto-ooA an enemy model, he stunned beforehand with another attack (in the same phase). for that you would need a second model.

this was either clarified in the rulebook or in one of the errata. Can't remember where exactly atm unfortunately...
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Thu 23 Dec 2010 - 13:39

I think that the rules strongly suggest that you get two additional attacks if you wield a brace of crossbow pistols:

Q: What is a ‘brace’ of pistols?
A: A brace of pistols is two pistols of the same type, eg, two duelling pistols, two crossbow pistols, etc.

from the hand-to-hand rule of pistols (rulebook, p. 31):

If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the
first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a model’s Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are resolved at Strength 4 and with a -2 save modifier, regardless of the firer’s Strength.

So: As crossbow pistols do count as pistols and you can have a brace of pistols (quote 1) and you can fire both pistols at the same time (in the first turn), this strongly suggests that you get 2 additional attacks.

However, in quote 2 they speak of attacks INSTEAD of other attacks. but the crossbow pistol's attacks are additionally. So it's not exactly the same thing.

btw: can a crossbow pistol shot be parried in close combat? normal pistols can but the crossbow pistols cc-attack is somehow different (BS instead of WS and BEFORE all other attacks. so also BEFORE parry rolls?)
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Fri 24 Dec 2010 - 6:20

In our group, it is not possible to block the additional xbow-pistol attacks. I was the first to play witchhunters and my opponents decided, that the strike-to-injure skill could not be used for my pistols, since they are "no true cc-attacks". So I thought it was only fair that at least these two attacks (two are possible in or group) cannot be parried.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Tue 4 Jan 2011 - 12:16

I wish they had called crossbow pistols "miniature crossbows" or "hand crossbows." Aside from FAQ quotes saying "anything with pistol in its title is considered a pistol," the rules for crossbow pistols have NOTHING to do with normal pistols. There is no text in their description saying they fire every other round. There is no text in the description saying the may be bought as a brace. Indeed, in the Equipment List every other pistol is listed as costing 15/30 or 30/60. Crossbow pistols are listed ONLY as 35 GC. That's because they count as a single ranged weapon choice, like a bow or a crossbow. Firing one (and only one) counts as firing your ranged weapon for the turn. In addition, they're the only ranged weapon that *actually* gives you an extra attack, so there's no reason to buff them further by carrying two and allowing two close combat attacks.

In regards to pistols:

1. If you have a hand weapon and a pistol, you're allowed 1 shot with the pistol and your Attack characteristic worth of attacks with the hand weapon.

2. If you have a brace of pistols, you are allowed two and only two attacks with the pistols, regardless of your Attack characteristic.

3. If you fire your pistols at range and subsequently charge or get charged the next turn, you're still allowed to use your pistols in the first round of close combat. Does it make sense? No. But then again, fish fall from the sky. Likewise, if you charge, fire both your pistols in close combat, take out all your enemies, then get charged the next turn, you're allowed to use your pistols in the first round of that close combat as well. I will again refer you to raining fish.

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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Tue 4 Jan 2011 - 12:32

MHRRv7, page 6 wrote:
Page 122, Pistolier
Replace the second sentence of the description with:
“If he is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols), he may fire twice in the Shooting phase (though note that normal reloading rules apply). If he has a single pistol then he may fire it in the same turn it was reloaded.”

MHRRv7, page 14 wrote:
Q: What is a ‘brace’ of pistols?
A: A brace of pistols is two pistols of the same type, eg, two duelling pistols, two crossbow pistols, etc.

Q: If I buy two of the same type of pistol at different times, are they counted as a brace?
A: Yes, as long as they’re exactly the same type.
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PostSubject: Re: clarifications about Pistolier, pistols and crossbow pistols   Tue 4 Jan 2011 - 14:39

Thanks CS. Those are the FAQ mentions I was referring to. And that's exactly what makes this question tricky.

But again, that's my point. Aside from these references, crossbow pistol rules don't resemble pistol rules at all. I feel like the two passages you quote mistakenly lump a distinct weapon in with "pistols" because of a misnomer.

However, I understand why the author of the FAQ felt a need to write it. Having the Pistolier skill gives a benefit to owning a "brace" of crossbow pistols. And perhaps that's why a "brace" of crossbow pistols should only count as a single ranged weapon choice. The author wanted a crossbow pistolier to be able to fire twice in the shooting phase.

But remember, the Pistolier skill says the warrior "may fire twice in the SHOOTING PHASE." The Pistolier skill should not effect the Crossbow Pistol's special "fire in close combat" rule, which takes place in the CLOSE COMBAT phase. It's a narrow distinction, I know, but I believe it was the intent of the rule. In essence, the author had to choose between "Pistolier" or "Quick Shot" in reference to Crossbow Pistols. He chose the former, thus creating a load of confusion.
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