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 Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?

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pistolpete308
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PostSubject: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 0:02

To me the Sisters of Sigmar seem to be one of the most problematic warbands in the book.

A) The model range is probably the most limited in the game (Amazons, "the other chick warband", are close, but they have a bit of customizability). The Sisters are all metal (severely limiting conversion opportunites), and all female, which makes it MUCH harder to use replacements from other ranges.

In comparison, mercenaries and witch hunters can use virtually any Empire plastic kit or metal model, giving virtually unliited modeling opportunities. Skaven have a vast range of plastic and metal models, as do the undead and chaos warbands (who can also use empire and brettonain kits). Even Kislev has more options despite the fact that the official Kislev models are discontinued.

Even worse, the SOS range is limited to the boxed set, which convenently leaves out one of the most important models (the Augur) who has been out of production for years. It's not exaclty easy to find a model of a blind female that is bald except for a single braid.

B) Having a spellcaster is one of the big draws of the warband, but your only spellcaster is the Matriarch, and if she dies, she can't be replaced by a promoted henchman or hired sword. For a warband without a whole lot of other things going for it, that's a huge loss.

C) Thier shooting sucks. Slings, the only missile weapons, are okay near the beginning to the game but rapidly lose effectvness vs high toughness or armor saves. They have no access to shooting skills, so nobody can access other missile weapons.

D) Their close combat ability is based almost entirely on the sigmarite warhammer which is WAY too good for it's cost, and gives them a lopsided advantage vs some warbands.

E) The sigmarite warhammer is so good that it makes all other weapons pointless, making the whole process of equipping a warband boring. A very poor example of game design.

F) The steel whip, thier other special weapon, has awkward rules, and a boring fix for those awkward rules. The sigmarite warhammer is so good that the steel whip isn't worth taking, anyway.

G) They only have 4 other weapon choices (I'm counting mace/hammer as 1 since they are exactly the same in game terms): Dagger, Hammer, Flail, Double Handed Weapon. No spears, swords, halberds, or morning stars. It's the most boring equipment list in the game.

H) They only have two henchmen types (instead of the usual 3), and only one of them is worthwhile. The novices are cheap at 15 gold, but for 10 more gold you get a sister with an extra point of WS, BS, and Leadership. The sisters are so much better that there's no real point in buying the novices at all, unless you're desperately poor.

The Sisters aren't unplayable, but they do seem to be one of the worst engineered warbangds in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 0:14

We've had no problems with SoS.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 0:26

yes they suck. you should ask asp about it, he'll make your day Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 0:33

The auger model being OOP is weird, I agree.

As for how the warband plays, they are solid - probably among the stronger of the original warbands, although not broken (the original whip rules were messed up, though).

In general the original Mordheim did a really good job presenting warbands that were quite different from each other, but which were actually quite balanced in terms of play. The Sisters have one of the best spell casters in the game and some excellent melee weapons. They have limited shooting ability and a limited choice of henchmen types to balance their strengths.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 1:49

Hey pete! Welcome to Tom's.

I don't collect sisters anymore. (I cashed in and sold mine.) But I do feel you are being a bit hard on the girls.

pistolpete308 wrote:

A) The model range is probably the most limited in the game (Amazons, "the other chick warband", are close, but they have a bit of customizability). The Sisters are all metal (severely limiting conversion opportunites), and all female, which makes it MUCH harder to use replacements from other ranges.
This is really only a problem if you are a GW only kind of person. As GW expands their plastics this will become less of a problem because of the 40K Sisters of Battle range. Once those girls hit plastic it will be much easier.

Otherwise Reaper has a line of even more ridiculous female warrior nuns, plus a large selection of female clerics. Several other miniature companies make warrior nuns or just nuns for historical games. For example, Led Adventures has a great line of militant medieval looking nuns/women warriors that would serve as Sisters with weapon swaps.

pistolpete308 wrote:
B) Having a spellcaster is one of the big draws of the warband, but your only spellcaster is the Matriarch, and if she dies, she can't be replaced by a promoted henchman or hired sword. For a warband without a whole lot of other things going for it, that's a huge loss.

You must be refering to the original rules. The 2005 Rules Review/Living Rulebook addressed this specifically.

pistolpete308 wrote:
C) Thier shooting sucks. Slings, the only missile weapons, are okay near the beginning to the game but rapidly lose effectvness vs high toughness or armor saves. They have no access to shooting skills, so nobody can access other missile weapons.

They do have access to a number of excellent hired swords who can shoot for them. They are a CC warband. By the end game they can hold their own against shooters through skill choices, HS and equipment.

pistolpete308 wrote:
D) Their close combat ability is based almost entirely on the sigmarite warhammer which is WAY too good for it's cost, and gives them a lopsided advantage vs some warbands.
Actually I'd say its the whip and the hammer. Quite deadly to all warbands. Note that they still suck at shooting.

pistolpete308 wrote:
E) The sigmarite warhammer is so good that it makes all other weapons pointless, making the whole process of equipping a warband boring. A very poor example of game design.

Limiting weapon choice gives them their character. Unlike the indistinguishable mercenaries and the Witch Hunters who have broad choices, the Sisters don't. It makes them a highly cohesive warband. You don't play Sisters to make a lot of choices. If you did how would they be unique? A warband of female adventurerers/warriors is possible using Reaper or WarMachine or a host of other minis, but militant nuns? Awesome!

pistolpete308 wrote:
F) The steel whip, their other special weapon, has awkward rules, and a boring fix for those awkward rules. The sigmarite warhammer is so good that the steel whip isn't worth taking, anyway.
We've had a great time with the whipcrack rules. Our veteran Sisters player returned last summer after a few years off. He whined about the new whip rules for a game or 2, then he caught on and off he went. He always had a lot of whips and was glad of it.

pistolpete308 wrote:
H) They only have two henchmen types (instead of the usual 3), and only one of them is worthwhile. The novices are cheap at 15 gold, but for 10 more gold you get a sister with an extra point of WS, BS, and Leadership. The sisters are so much better that there's no real point in buying the novices at all, unless you're desperately poor.

Actually the novices fill the role of expendible cheap warrior. They can be used to screen or as bait. They preform well in either task and can be given cheap weapons that make them a credible threat, if the enemy tries to ignore them.
Also some players are always desperately poor. Sorted.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 1:54

I'm not arguing that they're overpowered or undepowered. The game balance seems okay.

The biggest thing seems to be the boringness of the warband: very limited model selection, one missile weapon, one hand weapon that makes the entire weapon list obsolete, only one practical henchman choice.

It takes all the strategy out of tinkering with the warband because the choices aren't really choices. Every member is going to be equipped with a sling and a sigmarite warhammer (except for the heroes, which can have two sigmarite warhammers and a sling). Every other weapon choice is strictly worse.

Same with henchmen. Why take crappy novices, when you can spend a little extra and get a massive skill boost with sisters? BS 2 is almost worthless, WS 2 means even mediocre fighters will own you in combat, and LD 6 means that you're going to run more often than not.

It takes a minimum of 3 expereince upgrades just to get a novice to the level of a starting sister. With stat increases so hard to come by, being able to buy a stat increase with gold is ALWAYS better than having to earn it.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 2:06

yes it is the most poorly designed of the core bands

if they should work, they should be a fallen sisters band with chaos magic, crossbows, whips, flails, fighting claws, maybe some harpies, some chaos hounds etc. etc. etc. - in fact i am working on just that ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 2:14

Quote :
Otherwise Reaper has a line of even more ridiculous female warrior nuns, plus a large selection of female clerics. Several other miniature companies make warrior nuns or just nuns for historical games. For example, Led Adventures has a great line of militant medieval looking nuns/women warriors that would serve as Sisters with weapon swaps.


The infamous "Butt Nuns". Yeah, they're cool in a pervy sort of way, but the range is sadly limited.

And yes, there are female clerics, but it's surprisngly difficult to find ones that match the Sister's disticnctive look.


Quote :
Limiting weapon choice gives them their character. Unlike the indistinguishable mercenaries and the Witch Hunters who have broad choices, the Sisters don't. It makes them a highly cohesive warband. You don't play Sisters to make a lot of choices. If you did how would they be unique? A warband of female adventurerers/warriors is possible using Reaper or WarMachine or a host of other minis, but militant nuns? Awesome!


But if the signature weapons are so good. why would you use anything else? All of the other choices are much worse in comparison. I don't have a problem with a warband having signature weapons, but making them so much better than everything else is really boring. I'd prefer it if the special weps were restricted to the heroes which would make them more special.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of militant nuns, even if it is kind of silly. I just think the Sisters could be a little more flexible and versatile to promote different play styles.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 2:24

2 out of our 3 Ard Boy types play or have played sisters as part of their warband mix. They made use of whips, hammers and slings, both henchwoman types, the occasional Double Handed weapon, flails and horses. They seemed to enjoy themselves.

The rest of the group use Sisters depending on their model collections (newer players don't have them). The rest of the group have played pretty much as described above except that not being Ard Boy types they win less, but no one complained of boredom. Even in this enlightened age I still meet players who make choices based on personal whims rather than optimal guides, or best practices. As baffling as that is, it is true.

As for Novices in particular, maybe we like inexpensive screens, etc more than your group. Works for us.

The warband plays DIFFERENTLY from other warbands. Some folks see this as a plus.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 2:26

I dont find the Sisters of Sigmar the least silly, the history and fluff surrounding them, are one of the coolest additions to the Warhammer world as I know it, and I have been around since it came to be. The whole idea is perfectly acceptable in the older warhammer lore, so for me, they fit just fine.
Regarding the rules, I have played them, even though it was a long time ago, and I loved them, mainly due to their uniform feel, their limits where their strenght as far as I thought, at least lore wise. But each and one to their own Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 4:40

The last big long competitive campaign I was in I played a S of S warband, and they won fairly handily (next in line was a Lizardman warband). I certainly did not find them boring!

shotguncoffee: "yes it is the most poorly designed of the core bands"

I don't think they (or any of the other) starting warbands are poorly designed. Sorry. I find them all interesting, diverse, and competitive. (I will qualify that by saying my group has never run many of the Chaos warband - I forget their name - or the witch hunters, compared to all of the others).
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 5:26

pistolpete308 wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of militant nuns, even if it is kind of silly. I just think the Sisters could be a little more flexible and versatile to promote different play styles.
I'm not meaning to be blunt but if you want a different play style then play a different warband. Wink I do not believe that every warband needs to cater for every play style or even a lot of play styles.

shotguncoffee wrote:
they should be a fallen sisters band with chaos magic, crossbows, whips, flails, fighting claws, maybe some harpies, some chaos hounds etc. etc. etc. - in fact i am working on just that ^^
Your Fallen Sisters warband concept sounds like it'll be interesting. I look forward to seeing what it is like once you are finished. Not instead of SoS though but as an alternative.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 9:20

I absolutely love the Sisters; they were my first true Mordheim gang. The models available are IMO great sculpts, and even if they're metal they can be modded. That said, it is sad that you have to work so hard to proeuce those extra models, it's a deterrent for those interested in playing them. Lastly, for those who find the sisters to be silly fluffwise: there are examples of religiously based female fighting orders in history, and even if there weren't, come on, it's a fantasy world - let us give the women a chance to fight!

Gamewise I find that the Sisters perform well, and that all their weapon choices are viable. It's true that the sigkarite warhammers are very good, but you fare better in a campaign if you have a mix of weapons, so you should use the others as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 12:16

Aren't the warhammers a hero´s only choice?

So you have to equip at least your henchwomen otherwise?
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 12:38

Nope!

"Only Matriarchs and Sister Superiors may carry two Sigmarite warhammers."

That means the everyone else can wield one.

I'm going to go with the pro-SoS camp. They have some of the best equipment out there, access to prayers, and a reroll on exploration. Not too shabby!
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 13:43

shotguncoffee wrote:
yes it is the most poorly designed of the core bands

if they should work, they should be a fallen sisters band with chaos magic, crossbows, whips, flails, fighting claws, maybe some harpies, some chaos hounds etc. etc. etc. - in fact i am working on just that ^^

In the campaign I am about to play in I am playing the sisters. It looks like most the people (if not all the people other than myself) are playing evil aligned bands. Normally I wouldnt ever ally with someone for a team game if they were evil BUT I am using the sisters fluff to make them more Radical. I will still not align with Undead or possessed as I feel they are they Sisters sworn enemy BUT i feel like they are so radical they are willing to work with anyone else to accomplish their goals.

So not really chaos but not really holy either.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 14:11

you can use the new dark eldar as a base for SoS
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 14:38

I like the idea of a warband of fallen sisters as well, maybe even in the company of some warlocks or others. Very interesting idea! Please post if you continue with it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 15:15

I had a Reiklander band that was led by an ex-Sister. They were a lot of fun.

I am hoping that the new 40K Sisters of Battle plastics, when they come out, will allow for easier modeling of female figs for Mordheim. The new Dark Eldar figures do provide some opportunities.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 15:42

pistolpete308: what you have hit upon is the fierce loyalty an anti-analyticism of the die-hard mordheim fans. there have been others who have taken an analytical approach to mordheim in the past but such people are like lone rangers in the crowd of gw-loyalists.

i am not saying anything bad about anyone, just that people have different makeups here.

think about it: mordheim has had no support for 7 years and modern skirmish games are far more nuanced and suble in their rules that mordheim ever was. (yet mordheim has to best fluff!) - the people who are still on boards like thigs, still playing mordheim with only a few tweaks are BOUND to be the people who found the okay to begin with

for the record, i completely agree with your criticism: sisters suck. their fluff is silly (okay I can live with that) but their warband layout is boring: hammer, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 17:14

Funny how I always lump them into the 'bad guys' list in my head. I started off playing a mercenary warband (marienburg) and so I lumped warbands into 'bad guy' (SoS, CoC, Undead, orcs, Possessed, skaven) 'rivals for loot and profit' (other mercs. pirates, dwarfs, etc.) and 'annoying people with too much time on their hands' (witch hunters, elves, Bretonnians, etc)

See the way I see it:
'annoying people with too much time on their hands' = kill you if you get in their way of their task
'rivals for loot and profit' = kill you only if it increases their profit or loot margin
'bad guy' = kill you just because

My only beef with the SoS is that they are a bit limited to the Hammer/Sling/Flail combo. But that does not limit the warband in gameplay, just that few people will ever want to run Sisters for a second campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeTue 26 Jul 2011 - 18:53

There is nothing wrong with SoS and their background is additionally explained in some of the 2nd edition RPG tomes for anyone who cares. It all matches up and quite interesting stuff. I also read a Warhammer novel where a Sister was seen exiting Marienburg (for some indeterminable reason!?) by the main characters in the story while they were entering the city-port.

But yeh the Sister's do still suck IMHO. Dwarfs suck too though so there you go. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeWed 27 Jul 2011 - 0:13

werekin wrote:
But yeh the Sister's do still suck IMHO. Dwarfs suck too though so there you go. Wink

Exactly! Very Happy

Nah, just making fun, never played against the sisters but they seem cool to me and model wise, you can nowadays convert them from Dark Eldar etc. Someone on here even made a Bertha from a Witch elf.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeWed 27 Jul 2011 - 0:41

shotguncoffee: Can you give some examples of other skirmish rules systems that you think have superior nuance/subtley? I'm just hungry to look at alternative rules for inspiration; I'm a rules tweaker who tends toward the analytic side Smile
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Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitimeWed 27 Jul 2011 - 2:01

I like the sisters, but I probably won't ever play them. Mainly due to the lack of models. I echo the sentiment that if GW ever releases Plastic Sisters of Battle, I am so there.
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Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck? Icon_minitime

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