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 Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?

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shotguncoffee
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Tue 26 Jul 2011 - 18:59

hero: malifaux, LoTR, warmarchine/hordes, coreheim, and mordheim++ to name but a few
http://tzapquiel.byethost10.com/mordheim.html

the entire GW system is kinda badly designed: a D6 system with a 10-point statsscale

long range modifiers, speical saves, comparing WS - bulky and slow

sometimes you have to roll high and sometimes low (counter intuitive)

no cards or other forms of resource management in game makes army selection more important that strategy

etc
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Tue 26 Jul 2011 - 20:57

shotguncoffee wrote:
pistolpete308: what you have hit upon is the fierce loyalty an anti-analyticism of the die-hard mordheim fans. there have been others who have taken an analytical approach to mordheim in the past but such people are like lone rangers in the crowd of gw-loyalists.

i am not saying anything bad about anyone, just that people have different makeups here.

think about it: mordheim has had no support for 7 years and modern skirmish games are far more nuanced and suble in their rules that mordheim ever was. (yet mordheim has to best fluff!) - the people who are still on boards like thigs, still playing mordheim with only a few tweaks are BOUND to be the people who found the okay to begin with

for the record, i completely agree with your criticism: sisters suck. their fluff is silly (okay I can live with that) but their warband layout is boring: hammer, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling, hammer, sling
I would definitely not call myself a GW-loyalist. I don't play any other GW games but Mordheim. I am a die-hard Mordheim fan but I do not believe in anti-analyticism. Our group have introduced some house rules that we have felt appropriate to adjust how Mordheim plays. PP308 asked a question and I answered it. Some like VK answered in more detail.

You are right though. The people left playing Mordheim probably are those who do actually like Mordheim warts-and-all. Smile

werekin wrote:
But yeh the Sister's do still suck IMHO. Dwarfs suck too though so there you go. Wink
Sorry. The opinions of half-elf, were-creatures do not count on this forum. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Wed 27 Jul 2011 - 8:43

LAZtheinfamous wrote:
I like the sisters, but I probably won't ever play them. Mainly due to the lack of models. I echo the sentiment that if GW ever releases Plastic Sisters of Battle, I am so there.
Never mind the SoB, I'd probably start a SoS-Warband just to have a reason to buy and paint the Lead Adventure's Warrior Nuns Von Kurst mentioned. They are ace and all the female models one needs imo Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Wed 27 Jul 2011 - 15:35

I don't see that the SoS are hard-to-find. I ebayed over a dozen this year and they didn't sell for a great sum.

Quote :
Someone on here even made a Bertha from a Witch elf.

A really nice miniature. I chopped a Bertha B in two! Does that make her harder to procure? Converted her into Clara Hasslecroft, a cold-one riding valkyrie for my Norse warband. And no sorry there are no pictures for this berserk woman yet...!! You will have to drool over the Witch Elf used as a Norse Merchant's concubine on my epic war sledge conversion in the BTB gallery for a while longer. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Wed 27 Jul 2011 - 17:48

Most of the Sisters are still available from GW, and there are certainly a fair number available on the second-hand market.
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pistolpete308
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 2:16

Sadly, the fanatic models with interchangable weapons are ridiculously priced, as are the Augur and Bertha.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 2:23

If you keep an eye open for Bertha and the Augur, you should be able to get them for a good price. I got both for a total of 30, which is not super cheap, but considering they're OOP and that other singe miniature cost 10+ too nowadays, it's ok I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 7:47

The Sister models with the inter-changeable weapons are not nearly as nice as the original (and available) ones, which were much better sculpts (I have 'em all). If you don't mind gluing hands to wrists on metal models (which I don't like), then you are better off buying the original (available) models and doing conversions. And the relatively new plastic Dark Eldar females (Wyches) come with whips that should work just fine.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 28 Jul 2011 - 22:47

The other way is to just make your own augur - its not that hard to make a bandanna around the eyes with some greenstuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Fri 29 Jul 2011 - 6:46

Some of the Reaper battle nuns are very nice (you can paint them with hose so the thongs aren't particularly obvious). Werner Klocke did some of them, and the faces are gorgeous. But most will need weapon swaps (most have swords).

I use a unit of sisters - mixed GW and Reaper battle nuns - as flagellents in Warhammer games.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Sun 31 Jul 2011 - 10:00

I think the whip is getting a bad rep on here because with the new rules it gives you +1A in the first round of combat which strikes first if you are charged! So early on thats basically a spear with +1A on the first round that can be used with a war hammer as well and all for 10gc. what isn't amazing about that!?
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Sun 31 Jul 2011 - 11:01

It is a very nice weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Mon 1 Aug 2011 - 12:52

Thanks coffeeshotgun, I'll check some of those systems out.


Probably won't be saying anything that hasn't already been said, but here goes!

I see a sigmarite warhammer and whip as the best weapon choice for SoS henchwomen, but only seeing as how they can't dual wield hammers like heroines. With slings, of course!

I don't think it's fair to say SoS are badly designed for having limited equipment choices. If you want a large equipment selection play mercenaries. Mercenaries have a variety of gear, while the Sisters instead have a limited selection of powerful gear. Both are making up for a moderate stat line.

Thematically it makes sense, also. The SoS adhere to the strict codes of their religion, and likewise their style is uniform and unchangeable.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Mon 1 Aug 2011 - 14:51

"If you want a large equipment selection play mercenaries. Mercenaries have a variety of gear..."

True. Nonetheless, most of my mercs have very similar weapon patterns (divided into two categories, marksmen and swordsmen). To some, that might seem boring, I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Tue 2 Aug 2011 - 8:20

does anyone else think the sisters are kinda screwed out of some of the really cool stuff in the academic skill list. I understand why but why didnt they allow more characters to learn prayers?
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Tue 2 Aug 2011 - 21:13

Sisters are already overpowered with thier super-equipment. Multiple spellcasters would be madness. It's worth noting that witch hunters only get one spellcaster too.

Some other warbands may have the ability to create additional spellcasters with a tome of magic, but this is expensive and locks that character into academic skills, greatly reducing his combat potential.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Wed 3 Aug 2011 - 10:48

and prayers are the best of the original spell decks

IMO a lot of GW fans rationalize what is plainly bad design. they're welcome. they're also welcome to disagree with me. but don't be fooled by the residual loyalty Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Wed 3 Aug 2011 - 19:05

Disagreeing is fine... but writing off anyone who disagrees with your position as a "GW fanboy" is a fairly weak argument for your case. Your objections seem to be (1) that their "fluff is silly" and (2) that you find them boring because of their relatively limited weapon choice. Both are extremely subjective judgements, and one not need to be a "GW fan" to disagree with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 2:09

Thank you, mweaver! Was about to write something like that...
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 9:32

I would agree their fluff IS silly. But in the Mordheim kind of silly that will bash you over the head, break your legs steal your clothes then leave you in the middle of The Pit with only a rotten fish for a weapon. Yay Mordheim!
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 9:54

well i am sorry it came out the wrong way.

what i meant to say was that strategy games where it pays off to just spam one type of unit (red alert soviet heavy tanks, anyone?) is plainly bad design and to my mind, that is a fact beyond argument
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 11:17

shotguncoffee wrote:
well i am sorry it came out the wrong way.

what i meant to say was that strategy games where it pays off to just spam one type of unit (red alert soviet heavy tanks, anyone?) is plainly bad design and to my mind, that is a fact beyond argument

Granted, the Sisters are cc heavy, which encourages use of their special weapons. That said, the matriarch, superiors and the augur are very different "units" game mechanically and are best played in different ways. I also find that you fare best if you use some Sisters with doublehanded weapons and some with flails. To sum it up: spamming sigmarite warhammers IMO is suboptimal.

Lastly, a little tip from a philosophy teacher: phrases containing words like 'good' or 'bad' are never "facts beyond argument", although I happen to agree with you on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 12:58

"what i meant to say was that strategy games where it pays off to just spam one type of unit (red alert soviet heavy tanks, anyone?) is plainly bad design and to my mind, that is a fact beyond argument"

Hah! I'm going to argue with you anyway! Well, partially. I mostly agree with your above statement out of context, but not in context (as proof that the Sisters are flawed). If all the warbands in this "strategy game" all wound up being structured and equipped the same, that would be a flaw in the game. But one of the strengths of Mordheim is that it allows for a variety of different warbands, both in their role-playing/setting context and in their play style. Reiklanders are optimized to shoot (when was the last time you saw an experienced Mordheimer recruit "warriors" into his Reiklander warband? And the merc bands were designed to be the most diverse!). Sisters of Sigmar and Skaven are more designed for close combat (or short-range shooting). There may not be a lot of options for the types of warriors you recruit and there may be clearly optimal weapon combinations within both of these warbands, but these two CC warbands are quite different from each other, and they are both quite different from the other warbands. There is a lot of diversity within the game in terms of warbands, although many of the warbands have limited options, or options that everyone defaults to (I don't know any players anymore who hire zombies for the Undead warband, and few actually hire dire wolves).

The short version: to the extent your statement concerned games systems, I agree with it (but do not believe this problem applies to Mordheim). However, I do not think the (relative) lack of flexibility within some warbands is an indication that they are flawed - just that they are specialized.

Incidentally, just because a warband has fewer choices in terms of warriors and equipment does not mean that any two people will play them the same. Check out the advice Horatius and I are giving Laz in his "Need tactical advice" thread, about how to pull his Skaven out of a hole.

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5594-need-tactical-advice-for-multiplayer-game


Last edited by mweaver on Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 19:52; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : correcting typos)
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Thu 4 Aug 2011 - 18:34

+1 mweaver! I won't say anything more myself because I think that your post is very well written. Very Happy

You are very entitled to your opinion, shotguncoffee. I won't try to take that right away from you. Please just treat those who have a different opinion to you with respect (which I think you generally do except perhaps when things come out the wrong way). thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody else think the Sisters of Sigmar kind of suck?   Fri 5 Aug 2011 - 15:00

[quote="mweaver"]"what i meant to say was that strategy games where it pays off to just spam one type of unit (red alert soviet heavy tanks, anyone?) is plainly bad design and to my mind, that is a fact beyond argument"

Reiklanders are optimized to shoot (when was the last time you saw an experienced Mordheimer recruit "warriors" into his Reiklander warband? And the merc bands were designed to be the most diverse!

Shotguncoffe's got a point. A lot of warbands have crap choices that are never taken. And yes, this is bad game design.

(As far as Red Alert goes, the first game was heavily slanted in the soviet's favor, with much better tanks and aircraft. The allies had better boats, but that was too situational to be useful.)

Anybody with half a brain realises that warriors are a shit choice in a Reikland warband, but really they'e not very good in a marienburg or middehiem warband, either. Swordsmen get an extra point of weapon skill, and "expert swordsman" for only 10 more gold. And marksmen have better missile weapon options.

Generally, warriors are an afterthought that are taken after your full complement of swordsmen and marksmen is full.

A little tweaking could have made warriors an interesting choice, along with zealots, darksouls, and zombies. But then again, the whole game system is a rickety wobbly mess, which is why there are so many house rules.

I also find that you fare best if you use some Sisters with doublehanded weapons and some with flails. To sum it up: spamming sigmarite warhammers IMO is suboptimal.



I'm going to have to disagree, here.

The sigmarite warhammers bump strength up by 1. That's halberd power, that only requires one hand. And they bump strength up by 2 vs undead and chaos warbands. That's great weapon/flail territory with none of the drawbacks (great weapons strike last, flails only get strength bonus on first round of combat) on a weapon that can be used in one hand.

That second hand can use a shield, but the munchkin choice is the steel whip for an extra attack every round PLUS a bonus attack on the first turn of combat that strikes first. Oh, and hammers get concussion, too.

These are the best weapons in the game. And the entire warband can use them. Shocked
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