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 Question about "hiding"

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Agni1973
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PostSubject: Question about "hiding"   Sun 12 Sep 2010 - 23:11

When we play games I have a friend who uses the hiding rule all of the time. My question to you is this: because a model is hidden does this mean that the other models are not aware of the presence of the hidden model, or is it solely for the purposes of not being able to be shot?

An example of what I mean: A group of (Lizardmen) climbed up into a tower on a bridge. A second group (Bloodletters) were in hand to hand combat with a third group (Ogres). The Bloodletters took all of the Ogres out of action. They went looking for other prey. The Bloodletters did not see the Lizardmen enter the tower.

Should they just wander around the board looking for something else to attack because they did not see the Lizardmen, thus allowing the Lizard men to move around and get into better positions? Or can the Bloodletters run towards the Lizardmen because they are aware of their presence on the battle field?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Regards.

Agni1973
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Speckie
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 0:28

Pretty sure you can just walk in any direction you want, get within the required distance you need for your initiative *4 or 5 for bloodletters) and then you have to roll under that to find them.

Think you mean are you allowed to merely walk forwards to find this model if you didn't see him cause it feels like cheating? My advice would be that you heard a noise or the ogres you were fighting called for help in the direction of that person etc...

So yeh I'd say you could walk towards it and take the test as normal.

-Speckie.
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Dahag
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 1:17

As Mordheim is round based it does not matter what a model was doing before in order to persecute a certain action in a later turn (excluding a very few exceptions). the only thing that counts is the situation at the very moment of declaring charges.

if you want to charge a model that is not visible from the point of view of the charging model (or hidden), but is within 4" you can make an Initiative test in order to charge it. If its outside 4" you may walk in the direction of the model until you can see it without cover to remove its hidden status. But in this case you may not charge in the same turn (but shoot at it and cast spells).

It should also be kept in mind that no model may hide within range of Initiative value in inches.

So for example if a witchhunter has Initiative 3, no enemy model can hide within 3" of that witchhunter.

EDIT: It might be that you don't need to see the full model to remove its hidden status but that's how we play it in our group... (we took this from the necromunda hidden rules).

@Speckie: I don't think you can walk and then test. Only if the model is within 4" at the beginning of the turn you could test and charge. but without moving it beforehand...
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Agni1973
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 8:45

Thank you both for your advice - Speckie & Dahag.

The group I play with is into roleplaying a lot and we are trying to make it not seem like "cheating" because the models did not know they were there. I argued that it is also a battle game and the opponents know that someone is there and are on the offensive.

I have always believed that hiding is supposed to stop the charging and shooting of their models nothing more. I will talk it over with my friends.

So once again thanks.

Regards.

Agni1973
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Speckie
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 8:49

Jealous you have people to play with, My friends have only just decided on their warband!
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HornedRat
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 21:58

I dont have a rule book handy, but if I remember correctly. In order to stay hidden they have to be out of line of sight. So what is considered hidden from one direction might not be from another.

In our group, we play hidden like a taking cover type of action. You know someone is there, you just dont have a visual on them. Maybe take that train of thought back to your group.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 22:07

Since players always know where the hidden models are, and act accordingly, we always assume that "wandering monsters" do too.

Were the bloodletters part of a player's warband? It would be daft (and make for a loooooong game) if they had to wander around aimlessly. I'd take HornedRat's suggestion there - "Hidden" just means they are out of sight and can't be shot at or charged (well, unless you follow the rules for charging hidden models).
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Agni1973
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Mon 13 Sep 2010 - 22:31

When we play Mordheim, one of us is usually running the scenarios as a judge type person. Because of our background as roleplayers we have a tendency to ally with each other a lot (although occasionally they will actually fight each other...Smile ). So with the judge we introduce "npc" characters and or warbands for the bands to fight.

So in a long winded answer to your question mweaver, the bloodletters were there for the warbands to fight.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Tue 14 Sep 2010 - 5:44

We play lots of collaborative games as well.

Your umpire could always calculate a quick chart for who the bloodletters would attack - assuming anyone was left besides the lizardmen. Instead of 1-3 Lizardmen, 4-6 other guys, make it 1-2 lizardmen 3-6 other guys if the lizardmen are hiding and the other guys aren't. Or if the lizardmen are the only warband left, the bloodletters will wander off without attacking them on a 4+ (assuming they didn't see the lizardmen enter the building, or moving around, before they hid) or a 5+ (if they did see the lizzards larking about earlier).

In this specific case, bloodletters are good at sniffing out opponenets - they can even figure out from a distance who has the highest warband rating! (see the Bloodletter encounter in the random encounters article)

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Agni1973
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Wed 15 Sep 2010 - 22:00

We had it set up so that there were 2 Bloodletters to attack each warband, one warband killed the their set off and went to get the second set. The whole question of hiding came into play because the Bloodletters that were still fighting did not know that they were about to be attacked and thus would just wander aimlessly. I will most likely talk to my friends and establish that each scenario is like a military operation. You might not know where the enemy is, but you are aware they are out there somewhere and will be extra careful and watchful.
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mweaver
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Thu 16 Sep 2010 - 5:40

Sounds like a reasonable way to approach the issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Thu 16 Sep 2010 - 14:07

When all else fails roll dice.
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Agni1973
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Fri 17 Sep 2010 - 0:26

True, rolling the dice to determine what happens is a fair way to resolve the issue as well. Hopefully we will game again soon and we can put the advice I have garnered here to play.

Regards.

Agni1973
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PostSubject: Re: Question about "hiding"   Today at 10:53

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