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 Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him

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Claus
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PostSubject: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 5:53

Hi gents

Im wondering if this is really true that Beastman Minotaur can take from the Beastman equipment list.

It would mean that I can buy him a Gromril Armour + Shield giving him a 3+ Save.

O.K. the armour is expensive enough but my Minotaur got allready Toughness 5 and I usually cast in addition "Eyes of the God" on him increasing his toughness to 6.

Im wondering if this is really still valid possibility to Equip this heavy weight.

Regards
Claus
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 6:42

I'm not quite sure, but I believe that gromril and ithilmar objects are only available for heroes. Can someone confirm this?
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 6:51

Im not sure if he can use gromril, I dont think he can.

But I do know he can not get T5, hes a henchman (cant become hero) and henchmen can not get +T.

-Skavenslayer
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 7:05

Are you using the Beastmen warband rules from Empire in Flames? My answers assume you are.

As Skavenslayer notes, the minotaur is a henchman, and he has the "Animal" special rule which says:

"Anima
l: A Minotaur is far more bestial than its Beastmen brethren and although it may gain experience it may never become a Hero."

So if you roll The Lad's Got Talent, you have to reroll. Also, as Skavenslayer again pointed out, there is no +1 toughness on the henchmen improvements table, so he is stuck at his starting 4 toughness (unless modified by a spell). He is allowed to take weapons and equipment from the gor list, which means light and heavy armor, shield, and helmet. No mithril or gromril armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 7:13

folketsfiende, henchmen are limited to whatever equipment the rules give for their henchman type - there is no generic rule saying they can't have gromril or ithilmar armor. To the best of my knowledge, with official warbands, the only henchmen who have access to either are the dwarf henchmen: clansmen and even beardlings (but not thunderers) take their weapons and equipment from the "dwarf warrriors" equipment list, which includes gromril weapons and armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 6 Aug 2010 - 7:21

mweaver wrote:
folketsfiende, henchmen are limited to whatever equipment the rules give for their henchman type - there is no generic rule saying they can't have gromril or ithilmar armor. To the best of my knowledge, with official warbands, the only henchmen who have access to either are the dwarf henchmen: clansmen and even beardlings (but not thunderers) take their weapons and equipment from the "dwarf warrriors" equipment list, which includes gromril weapons and armor.

Aah, thanks for the clarification!
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 3:28

Gents ....you are not right.

It is especially stated in Minotaur ruels....

[size=12]Weapons/Armour: Minotaurs may be armed with weapons and armour chosen from the Beastmen Equipment list.

The Beastmen Equipment list has heavy armour inside....thus means you can buy heavy armour for him. Gromril Armour is just a rarer version of heavy armour that only your Heroes can try to catch when trading but it does not mean you can not hand it over to a henchmen that is able to wear heavy armour

Rulebook page 82 states....

Henchmen never add more than +1 point to any of their
initial characteristics. If the dice roll indicates an increase
in a characteristic which has already been increased (or
is at its racial maximum), roll again until an unincreased

charateristic is rolled

It further says on same page......

characteristic increase

Characteristics for certain warriors may not be
increased beyond the maximum limits shown on the
following profiles. If a characteristic is at its
maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic. If both are
already at their racial maximum, you may increase any
other (that is not already at its racial maximum) by +1
instead. Note that this is the only way to gain the
maximum Movement for some races. Remember that
Henchmen can only add +1 to any characteristic.


Here nowhere it is stated that you can not increase the toughness of a Minotaur or Henchmen. and that this handling should only be applied to a hero. I were lucky enough to roll 2 times the same characteristic increase of the minotaur (that Im not allowed to increase anymor further) and therefore I had the choice what to increase.

Also the maximum toughnes of the Minotaur is stated as 5....so as he starts with 4 its possible to increase it to 5 and I know that I can not promote him to an hero.
What other purpose should this max. toughnes indication have otherwise.



So....please read the specific Beastmen Minotaur rules and the ones for characteristic increases on page 82....they are clear stated and in our group there is no discussion about to use it otherwise......but maybe there were somewhere an errata changing this that I dont know. But if not the from my side described scenario is possible...allthough it would mean to have spent 350 gold pieces on 1 model

Regards
Claus
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 5:40

Claus, unless you're using a modified version of the henchmen advancement table you can't roll a toughness upgrade for henchmen. The only upgrades to stats a henchmen can receive are; WS, BS, S, A, I, & LD. No toughness or wounds.
The Maximum profile given to the minotaur was probably just added for completeness, its semi redundant in the same way the goblin max stats and the ungor max stats are.


Also, henchmen may NEVER be equipped with rare items unless it specifically states in their equipment list. Gromeril (and ithlmar) are both treated as rare suits of heavy armour. The only exception to this rule is toughened leathers which may be worn by anyone.

Edit: Also, think about the armour situation this way. Why would your chieftan dote out the best armour to a drone with near animal intelligence , wouldn't he want to keep that armour to himself? The same would go for mounts etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 8:21

Quote :
If a characteristic is at its
maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic.

This means that if there are two options for an advance you roll, such as on the hero advance table or WS/BS on the henchman advance table, and the one you roll is at its maximum - you take the other.

If there is only one option to increase, such as all results on the henchman advance table except WS/BS, you re-roll until you get a result that may be increased.

Henchman get a max of 4 advances, and none start with stats high enough that the racial max is hit before the 14 experience cap.

Nice try though!

But moving on to your, starting question, I don't see anything saying you can't give gromril armor to henchmen who can use heavy armor... it's just not something i would advise since they have over twice the chance of dying than a hero does when they go out of action!
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 9:19

Yes, as the Pathfinder points out henchmen never receive enough improvement rolls that the "take any other" option comes into play. You roll again.

Defining gromril as heavy armor and saying if a henchman can take heavy armor than he can also take gromril is like saying a bow is a missile weapon so if a warrior can take a bow he can also take a Hochland long rifle because it, too, is a missile weapon. If you and your friends want to make a house rule that allows henchmen who can wear heavy armor to wear gromril even if it isn't on their list, that's fine. But I don't think the original rules allow that option.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 9:30

Armor:
We've hashed out the henchmen can use Ithilmar and gromril on this forum before. Since they are NOT Miscellaneous Equipment but armor, henchmen can use them as long as they have access to heavy armor. My only Minotaur to survive a whole campaign went that route.

The T increase thing has come up in the local group. We went with no T increase for henchmen because the rule quoted under henchmen specifically says they must re-roll.

"Henchmen never add more than +1 point to any of their initial characteristics. If the dice roll indicates an increase in a characteristic which has already been increased (or
is at its racial maximum), roll again until an un-increased characteristic is rolled."

There is no such rule under heroes except for the rule section also quoted above which is titled Characteristic Increase. The 2 rules seem contradictory in my mind if applied to henchmen. One says re-roll until you can increase a characteristic the other says you can choose NOT to re-roll. Thus we went with the first as written and applied the second only to heroes.

"If a characteristic is at its maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic. If both arealready at their racial maximum, you may increase anyother (that is not already at its racial maximum) by +1 instead. Note that this is the only way to gain the maximum Movement for some races. Remember that Henchmen can only add +1 to any characteristic."

The rule as with many others is not particularly clear. Maybe we'll have another debate on game night.

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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 9:52

"We've hashed out the henchmen can use Ithilmar and gromril on this forum
before. Since they are NOT Miscellaneous Equipment but armor, henchmen
can use them as long as they have access to heavy armor. "

I may have missed the earlier discussion, but I am afraid I don't agree with the conclusion as an interpretation of the rules (as opposed to a house rule). They may be in the "armor" list, but they are not "heavy armor" which is a specific item on that list. Does a henchman such as a witch-hunter zelot who has "bow" on his equipment list automatically have access to a long bow? Not as I interpret the rules.

I know many players define ithilmar and gromril as heavy armor and say that heroes who cannot wear heavy armor cannot take I or G. But, interestingly, the descriptions of each never say they are "heavy". In my mind, I see "ithilmar" as mithril (can't imagine why) and it is described as a metal that is as "light as silk". I think ithilmar armor should count as light armor. Gromril armor is also never described as heavy (and in terms of weight and awkwardness, in game play it is the equivalent of light armor), although I do think of it as a type of heavy armor.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 10:04

I'm with you on the whole fuzziness of the rulebook concerning gromril, etc. There's a Q and A or FAQ or whatever that lays down the heavy armor rule. The last time it was discussed was in a thread by RationalLemming I believe.

I had either prepared or posted my rant about the vagueness of the rulebook concerning Ithilmar and gromril when the FAQ was posted and I ran out of steam.

I may be over-reaching with the 'henchmen may use' thing. (Wouldn't be the first time, this week even.) However do you allow warriors armed with longbows to use Quickshot? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sat 7 Aug 2010 - 10:22

Yup. (oh oh...).
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sun 8 Aug 2010 - 16:09

Actually it only takes one advance in strength to get henchmen to their racial max. Rolls strength again and it seems like you get to choose (according to the rules Claus quoted). Everything he said seems reasonable to me, and I never understood how it was possible to get movement increases before.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Sun 8 Aug 2010 - 19:15

For henchmen you roll again if you hit an increase you have hit before. Since there are more increase options than there improvement bumps for henchmen, the roll again option will always work for henchmen. Not for heroes, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 2:20

Aaahh....you all finally got my point .

Thats why I started this thread. The possibility of Toughness 5 and Gromril Armour for a Minotaur is really heavy tobacco.....but according to rules, Errata and FAQs I found (how they are stated now) it will allow this possibility.

@Toemass
Why to give Gromril to a Minotaur (based on your explaination)

Well....all my other Beastmen heroes got it allready . Its a gang we use for random games in our group beside the campaign. So the gang is at a rating close to 500 now and has quite a lot of games fought allready.

Regards
Claus
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Mon 9 Aug 2010 - 5:33

Gromril and Ithilmar are just materials used in making Heavy Armour (although I totally agree with people who think that Ithilmar should be a type of Light Armour but that is a house rule). Therefore the Minotaur CAN get Gromril or Ithilmar Armour as it can get Heavy Armour.

If you enforce that these are not types of Heavy Armour then it is the same as saying that a Gromril Axe is not an Axe and that a Gromril Axe requires the 'Weapons Training' skill to be used. This is of course different to saying that a Long Bow is a Bow for the purposes of wielding though (but I do get your argument mweaver). I agree that the rules are vague on this and I have seen the question come up a lot (do a search for "armour" on this forum and you'll find this question asked several times - even by Claus once before for his Minotaur! Laughing). The ultimate FAQ on the Mordheimer web site (http://www.mordheimer.com/articles/FAQ.htm#6._Weapons_and_Armour) says that this is the ruling in the Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ but I dug through the FAQs that I have saved on my PC and could not find this ruling to confirm (although I know that I've seen it in the past). If I do find it over the next day or two then I'll post it here.

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
Quote :
If a characteristic is at its maximum, take the other option or roll again if you can only increase one characteristic.

This means that if there are two options for an advance you roll, such as on the hero advance table or WS/BS on the henchman advance table, and the one you roll is at its maximum - you take the other.

If there is only one option to increase, such as all results on the henchman advance table except WS/BS, you re-roll until you get a result that may be increased.

This is the perfect paragraph to quote to discuss our house rule. Our house rule is to play it exactly how it reads. affraid Laughing If there is only one characteristic option on the henchmen increase table for the dice roll and the characteristic has already been increased then re-roll.
Quote :
Henchmen never add more than 1 point to any of their initial characteristics. If the dice roll indicates an increase in a characteristic which has already been increased (or is at its racial maximum), roll again until an unincreased charateristic is rolled.

However, if there are two options (as for all hero options and the WS/BS option for henchmen) then when BOTH options are maxed out (or when both are +1 for henchmen) then the player gets to choose.
Quote :
If both are already at their racial maximum, you may increase any other (that is not already at its racial maximum) by 1 instead.
(emphasis added)

We know this is a house rule but it fits in perfectly with the rules (while also appeasing our appetite for the possibility of non-standard henchmen increases in very, very rare situations). For our gaming group this means that a henchmen could get a Toughness increase.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Tue 10 Aug 2010 - 12:28


I would have thought you would need 3 suits of Gromril, and a Dwarven blacksmith to make suitable armour for a Minotaur.
He isn't your average size humanoid.
I know it's all fluff and interpretation, but i wouldn't allow Gromril or Ithilmar for large creatures.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 3 Sep 2010 - 6:13

I got a question concerning the following passage:

"Characteristics for certain warriors may not be
increased beyond the maximum limits shown on the
following profiles. If a characteristic is at its
maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic. If both are
already at their racial maximum, you may increase any
other (that is not already at its racial maximum) by +1
instead. Note that this is the only way to gain the
maximum Movement for some races. Remember that
Henchmen can only add +1 to any characteristic."

Since I started playing mortheim I read this passage about 72 times, but I still don't get it exactly:



In the passage: "If BOTH are already at their racial maximum..." what does BOTH refer to? Both what?

I see two possible interpretations:



A) "both" refers to "If a characteristic is at its maximum, take the other option", so like WS/BS or S/A.

So A works like this: e.g. you roll WS/BS but WS AND BS is at racial limit already. so you can increase a stat by choice.


B) "both" refers to

*If a characteristic is at its maximum, take the other option"

and

*roll again if you can only increase one characteristic.


So B would work like this:

1) you roll WS/BS but both are already maxed out.

2) so you roll again. but the stat of the second roll is maxed out already too.

3) so you may increase a stat by will


i'm really confused. can someone enlighten me please? Smile

Which prerequisites must be fulfilled exactly to get that increase by choice?
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Fri 3 Sep 2010 - 16:52

All characteristic advancements for Heroes have two options (WS/BS, S/A, etc). Therefore if you roll WS/BS and WS is already at its maximum but BS is not at its maximum then you must increase BS and vice versa. However, if you roll WS/BS and both WS and BS are at their maximum then you can choose to increase any other characteristic.

However, for Henchmen you always have to reroll if a characteristic is already at its maximum even for the WS/BS increase option.

My gaming group has made a house rule for the Henchmen WS/BS characteristic advancement option that is treated the same as for Heroes so if both are at their maximum then you get to choose to increase another characteristic. (We did this for one of our Beastmen players as it allows Ungors to increase their Movement characteristic which normally cannot be done because Ungors cannot be promoted to Heroes. I do like this house rule though and will keep it in all of our games going forward because it could be seen as an alternate interpretation of the rules rather than a house rule (even though I know that it is a house rule).)
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Mon 6 Sep 2010 - 1:03

thanks for the explanations. I'm glad it's finally clear to me Very Happy

concerning your houserule this could result in quite powerful henchmen (some luck provided):

*minotaur at T5
*mansized-henchmen with 3 attacks (given it was increased before)
*orc / gor henchmen at T5
etc.


didn't you experience it as a problem or did you limit the +1 by choice by further factors other than racial limits?
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Mon 6 Sep 2010 - 5:14

We have kept the +1 increase only for advances so no 3 A henchmen groups. It simply allows for the other characteristics to be increased that are not on the increase chart. It is true though that it could cause some uber henchmen and it remains to be seen if that is good or bad (this hasn't come up yet in practice to really give any insight as to how it works).
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PostSubject: Re: Beastman Minotaur - Equipment to take for him   Mon 6 Sep 2010 - 6:13

Good idea to keep that restriction, methinks. Makes sure that henchmen don't get overly strong (thats the heroes' job Smile ), but still does allow for some more flexibility and variation...
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