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 [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing

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Joker2and53
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PostSubject: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Mon 5 Apr 2010 - 21:11

Okay guys, a tricky situation came up in my groups BTB campaign. We are nearing the very end of our campaign, and playing scenario number 13, the Siege. Defending the bordertown are the “good guys,” consisting of Wood Elves (celestial protectorate), Lizardmen (damned shall burn) and Dwarves (lure of fortune). Attacking the bordertown are the “bad guys,” consisting of Skaven Clan Pestilins (silent threat), Black Dwarves (lure of fortune), and Possessed (scion of chaos). There is also a Merchant Caravan (lure of fortune) that is neutral and a Dark Elf Warband (scourge of the realm).

The possessed player has 40 campaign points (plus a couple more) and two chaos artifacts (Broadsword of Damnation and Skull of Gartok). During the good guys turn, the good guys managed to take the Possessed model that held the broadsword and the skull out of action with some incredible shooting. This forced a rout test, which the possessed player promptly failed. Under the rules, the model holding the artifacts should drop the two artifacts. However, there were two other Possessed models in base to base contact with the model that held the two artifacts. So the question is, do the models in base to
base contact with the model that dropped the artifacts pick up the artifacts before the warband routs, or does the Possessed warband rout first, leaving the two artifacts behind (despite the presence of the two other possessed models in base to base contact)?

Obviously, the answer will have a massive effect on the campaign. I ruled
that we would play both options out, and see what the people on this forum said about the question before making a definite decision. So, any thoughts?

Thanks in advance
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 1:30

Wow. First off, this sounds like an epic battle. I want photos, man! bounce

Now on to your question...
Firstly, the idea of the rules for ownership of the Chaos Artefacts is that other warbands have a chance of picking them up by taking their wielder out of action during a battle. At the same time, once an artefact is found (ie. unlocked and entered to the campaign), it cannot be lost again. Whenever a model loses an artefact, there must be a way to give it to someone else.

If the Hero dies after the game (e.g. through serious injury), then his warband will keep the artefact and give it to their new leader (in case of a chaos warband). If the Hero is taken out during a battle, place it on the board. If there is a Chaos artefact lying on the board when the game ends, the winner takes it. During the game, move into base contact to pick it up. "Any model may pick the item up by moving in contact with the marker." In your above example, if I understand correctly, the other Possessed models didn't get a chance to move/pick it up. They can't take the item while they are engaged in close combat or otherwise busy. The Movement of a model that brings it in contact with the item represents the act of picking it up. In any other phase than the movement phase, models cannot pick the up artefacts.

So the correct answer is: "the Possessed warband rout first, leaving the two artifacts behind (despite the presence of the two other possessed models in base to base contact)"

I know this sucks for the Possessed player and this is usually the case where he will start arguing and talking about common sense and, "come on! They are standing right THEEERE! Why should they leave the items behind?! It MAKES. NO. SENSE!! Rant rant rant." That is fair and understandable. We've had plenty of those moments, too. Smile

Finding a way of playing out both ways is incredible. How did you do that? Did you write down the positions of all models or what? What were the two different outcomes?

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Joker2and53
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 5:17

Thanks for the great response!!

cianty wrote:

Finding a way of playing out both ways is incredible. How did you do that? Did you write down the positions of all models or what? What were the two different outcomes?

Well, the possessed player was routing, the Merchant caravan had been eliminated, and the chaos dwarf player was also routing that turn. We had kind of hit a logical stopping point in the battle. So if we decided the Possessed player kept the artifacts, it would have been possible to treat the scenario as though it ended at that exact time (victory for the good guys).

But, in the event, the artifacts were dropped by the Possessed player, the remaining players continued to play out the scenario. Eventually the Clan Pestilins player took home the Skull and Broadsword, the Wood Elves took the Liber Chaotica, and the Chaos Dragon Scale armour is in the Dark Elves' possession. I had to tip my hat the the Clan Pestilins player for taking a 1 vs. 3 all the way to the wire for the two artifacts. Now if only he had some reason to want the artifacts....

One of our guys did manage to take some pictures on a camera phone, don't know how well they will come out yet. I was going to take some digital photos, but then inexplainably managed to misplace my camera battery charger, and now have to order a new battery charger. I don't really know how good photos from our club will look anyway. To put things in perspective, the name of the Possessed player's warband is "the legion of unpainted proxy space marines" with all that that entails. Up until last night, he was also the front runner in the campaign since Week 1. Not exactly a very picture worthy setting.

Now it looks like the Dwarven Treasure Hunters are in the Drivers seat, needing just two more Cathayan silk cloaks and to play the final journey home scenario.
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 6:45

Hey I am the Lizardmen (damned shall burn) in Champaign and it was a pretty intense battle.

I have a couple questions/distinctions.

If I am understanding the answer correctly if the Scion (or any Non-Demon Prince) is taken out of action they drop the artifacts, and then anyone can pick them up who is in base to base with them.

If you are the Demon Prince (i.e. you have all 4 artifacts, 40 35 CP and Scion of Chaos Objective) then the Artifacts are bonded to you, and you would take them OOA with you unless you died then you would drop them. So if you are the Demon Prince and taken OOA then you check to see if you died when you are taken OOA.

I think that is pretty clear from the rules. What I think what wasn't 100% clear is when you would be able to pick them up.

From reading you post it sounds like you need a movement action to pick-up the items even if you are already in base to base with them at the beginning of your turn. Since Routes happen before movement then you would not pick-up the items.

So a couple of Questions we had last night were:

Would you be able to pick them up during someone else's turn? No you have to pick them up during your movement

Would you be able to pick them up and then route? No you would have to have a move action to pick them up, and routes happen before movement

Edited for correctness


Last edited by Rudeboy on Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 9:17; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 8:54

@Joker: LOL about the Space Marine proxy warband. Well, that's kinda how we started back then. But we had the dignity to use Skaven models as Battle Monks. tongue

The Dwarfs winning the campaign would be a very cool turn. If they win their Journey Home sceanrio, I just love how things are put in a different perspective. If you then look back at the events of the campaign, all of a sudden it must all be viewed from the perspective of the merchants (dwarfs), how they got to this place, witnessed all the crazyness and bloodshed that is going on and then venture home to tell their families about the wonders they have seen, leaving behind all the other factions and what exactly happened to them no one knows. At least it is not told in this story.

Rudeboy wrote:
If you are the Demon Prince (i.e. you have all 4 artifacts, 40 CP and Scion of Chaos Objective) then the Artifacts are bonded to you, and you would take them OOA with you unless you died then you would drop them. So if you are the Demon Prince and taken OOA then you check to see if you died when you are taken OOA.

Yes. I could see the opponents of the demon prince complaining here that this is unfair or whatever. But the idea is that at this point the Marauder player has already won the campaign. What we wanted to do is give the player a chance to play a game with his Daemon Prince and smash some opponents before the campaign ends. That is why the Daemon Prince achievement is earned at 35 and the campaign ends with 40. So this "status" is meant to be a reward for the marauder player who gets to make an epic final battle where he destroys everything. And then it's The End. Of course, you could have just ended the campaign, but this is for the effect. After that game however, it is enough, as there is no point in permanently playing with the daemon prince. I think that would overdo it. The rules try to find a balance between creating a certain epic game and feel and then finding a proper end, before things go out of hand and become ridiculous.

Rudeboy wrote:
Would you be able to pick them up during someone else's turn? No you have to pick them up during your movement

Exactly. Smile

Rudeboy wrote:
Would you be able to pick them up and then route? No you would have to have a move action to pick them up, and routes happen before movement

Exactly. thumbsup

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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 9:22

Sorry I miss-typed you are correct at 35 Exp the Scion of Chaos would become a Demon Prince, at 40 they win the whole Champaign.

Thanks for all of your help.
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 9:38

Rudeboy wrote:
Sorry I miss-typed you are correct at 35 Exp the Scion of Chaos would become a Demon Prince, at 40 they win the whole Champaign.

Oh, I didn't even notice. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 14:35

Hey Ya'll, I'm the guy playing the Skaven Clan Pestilens warband (Silent Threat). It was an epic battle, and I did manage to get the two Chaos Artifacts away from the 4!!! tossers that were trying to run me down!
The reason I say tossers is not because there was 3 good guys, about 16 models, still on the battlements pelting me with arrows, bolts and spells, while holding the gate verseTrollslayers and Saurus skullsmashers, and not because the Dark Elves turned on me when we had been in cahoots to backstab the Possessed warband. No, that is Mordheim, what I couldn't get over was how the Good Guys were HELPING the Dark Elves (Scourge of the Realm)! I mean come on! He can use those stoopid artifacts, I can't!
Well I can't without being stupid too. Which if you've ever played Skaven is really bad, taking a Leadership check with skaven every turn blows.
Which brings me to my real question, since Skaven are clearly an Evil warband why do the Chaos Artifacts make them stupid? I mean Skaven were originally ”a new Chaos race" and they certainly are vile enough, I mean they make Chaos warriors look like a bunch of Ren Faire/Village People extras.
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PostSubject: Re: [BTB] Dropping Chaos Artefacts and Routing   Today at 9:40

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