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Eagle5
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PostSubject: Routing Questions   Wed 29 Dec 2010 - 22:14

1. If a Witch Hunter warband is in a battle and they have nothing but Flagellants and Warhounds left, do they fail their rout test automatically? We have a warband in our campaign that has a Witch Hunter as leader, one other Witch Hunter, 3 Flagellant heroes, two more Flagellants, Ogre Bodyguard, and 4 warhounds. His Leader and regular hero went OOA, along with two of the warhounds requiring a rout test. Should he fail automatically? We weren't sure what to do, had him roll just to see what would happen, and he rolled an '11' anyway, so it didn't matter. But just for future reference...
(those Flagellant heroes are becoming beasts, btw)

2. During a Surprise Attack scenario, if your leader is not on the battlefield yet, do you use his leadership for rout tests still? What if you run into the situation above and all models on field cannot qualify for rout test? I would say the leader is used for rout tests no matter what, even if he's not on map yet. Is there an official rule though?
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WarbossKurgan
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Thu 30 Dec 2010 - 1:38

1. There is no automatic routing, you use the highest Leadership that is left on-table. I would recommend voluntarily routing in this situation though!

2. We play that the same as the above and use the highest Leadership currently on-table.

I understand you questions but it makes things much simpler all round to just use what is on table at the time the test is needed. If everyone knows this in advance it will prevent any arguments when weird things happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Thu 30 Dec 2010 - 9:21

I have had that type of situation before. I played Witch Hunters and got beaten pretty badly during a game and only had Flagellants left. They’re fanatical and fearless pass leadership tests for that. That’s why they can not become the leader of the Warband. But they’re not stupid. They understand a strategic retreat. As the player, I did voluntarily route on that basis. But that would be would be up to the players I believe. As the player, I wouldn’t want to have to start a new Band because I fought to the last man and had half my Warband killed.

Just off the top of my head ideas:
- Player could roll for “Strategic Retreat” meaning they were smart enough to leave a bad situation. OR
- Player rolls for each member’s Ld individually to see if they realize a bad situation and leave. And those that pass could continue to fight as they don’t fear death, or until that member realizes its gone bad and leaves.
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Thu 30 Dec 2010 - 11:57

1. There are three possible solutions here. You could A) Given the special case, use the flagellant leadership stat of 10 to test. B) Use the stat from the last legal model taken out of action. C) Use an arbitrary "average" leadership to test. For example, implement a standing rule that if no model can legally test for route, you always roll against a 7.

I would personally favor option "C" since it solves the problem without breaking any actual rules.

2. If your warband leader is not on the table yet, you've got to use the highest leadership that is available on the table. But if it's the same situation as above, I would again use option "C."
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Thu 30 Dec 2010 - 21:44

WarbossKurgan wrote:
1. There is no automatic routing, you use the highest Leadership that is left on-table. I would recommend voluntarily routing in this situation though!

2. We play that the same as the above and use the highest Leadership currently on-table.

I understand you questions but it makes things much simpler all round to just use what is on table at the time the test is needed. If everyone knows this in advance it will prevent any arguments when weird things happen.

The problem with doing it that way is that with Witch Hunter warbands you create a situation where it's always a good thing to have your leader taken OOA if you want/need to win that scenario, as then your Flagellants use their 10 LD rating. Which, btw, starts naturally at 1 over human racial limits. There just seems something screwy about being able to use Flagellant LD for rout tests. I realize some other's can get Ld 10 too (vampires for one). But they don't start there and if they do have a Ld 10 then at least that's a few other advances they do not have (like higher T, W, or A).
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Thu 30 Dec 2010 - 23:38

One idea is to houserule flagellants to have average human leadership (7). Change nothing else. Since flagellants automatically pass leadership tests, a lower profile leadership shouldn't affect them (unless there's some roll against leadership spell in Mordheim?). The only test they'd actually roll against leadership for would be rout tests, which this change would fix.
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Fri 31 Dec 2010 - 4:00

Identity wrote:
One idea is to houserule flagellants to have average human leadership (7). Change nothing else. Since flagellants automatically pass leadership tests, a lower profile leadership shouldn't affect them (unless there's some roll against leadership spell in Mordheim?). The only test they'd actually roll against leadership for would be rout tests, which this change would fix.

Lure of Chaos uses Ld ratings between caster and target plus a D6 each.

But yeah, we're going to have to do something. The dork just got himself a fourth Flagellant hero. Or just tell him that's the risk you take having four [super]heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Fri 31 Dec 2010 - 13:41

In my circle we changed nothing, but instead made it that because of the - literally- fanatical mindset of the fanatics, they autopass *all* rout checks. Yes, that is pretty handy if you are fighting a scenario where you really *have* to win but is pretty costly in practically all other situations.

We also interpreted the 'can never be the leader' bit as they will never be the acting leader either, unless all other human models in the warband are eliminated. So generally the only time it comes into play is when you would really rather it didn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Fri 28 Jan 2011 - 14:37

Found a relevant entry under the Black Orc warband of all things. Here's the relevant rules:

Crazy: Nuttaz always pass any Leadership-based Tests
they have to take. A side effect of this is that their
minds are too far-gone and they may never learn
Academic Skills should they become a Hero on an
Advance Roll.

Savage: Nuttaz must always run or charge their
maximum distance towards the nearest opponent
they can see. Friendly models do not block line of
sight. Additionally they fight with an extra attack
whilst in combat. This does not appear on their
profile nor does it count towards the racial maximum.
If no enemy is visible they are moved under the
player’s control. They can never use any form of
armour or ranged weapons. Nuttaz
are also too unstable for other Boyz and
can never have the Leader ability or
use their Ld stat for rout tests, excepting
them as being the only models left on
the board.

And here's the source:

http://cianty.ashtonsanders.com/nc/pdf/nc-03-05-blackorcs.pdf

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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Sat 29 Jan 2011 - 5:51

Personally, our group plays that if the leader is taken out, the HERO with the next highest Ld takes the test. Which means that unless one of your flag's get TLGT, you can't use their LD unless all other heroes are out.
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Eagle5
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PostSubject: Re: Routing Questions   Sun 30 Jan 2011 - 21:14

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Personally, our group plays that if the leader is taken out, the HERO with the next highest Ld takes the test. Which means that unless one of your flag's get TLGT, you can't use their LD unless all other heroes are out.

He has four flagellant heroes. They were becoming quite insane too. Our campaign has kind of tampered off, as several of us have too much going on right now to play all the time. I can't remember if he still has all four or not.

Ironically it was all these flagellant heroes that caused the situation, since he only had two models capable of being leader at all.
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