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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 7:20

Quote :


Q:

How come
all models
have reduced movement and missile weapons have reduced ranges?



A:


Mordheim is designed to feature smaller scale battles. What that means,
is a
smaller board. For a smaller board to work, RANGES need to be cut down.
The Movement and
Shooting Ranges were designed for use in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, a
game with much
bigger distances than Mordheim. Reducing movement means that players
will have
to take extra care to advance across the board in a strategically sound
formation, as units can no longer skimp across the battlefield in a
single turn.
It also means that players will have to think about how they position
their
shooters.



All movement has been decreased
(so that Movement 4 in Mordheim = Movement 3 in Coreheim etc.)
The Movement and Shooting Ranges were designed for use in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, a game
with much bigger distances than Mordheim. Reducing movement means that players will have to
take extra care to advance across the board in a strategically sound formation, as units can no
longer skimp across the battlefield in a single turn. It also means that players will have to think
about how they position their shooters.
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Hasselt
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 7:37

Asp, I'll not continue debating with you in this thread (as it's not the place for it). Instead, I'll start a new thread in General Shouting. I hope the mods will give me some lee-way (and you as well) so that we may have a civilized discussion on this subject.

In response to your reply on the movement-issue; from my experience the limited movement allows for less tactics, as warbands are unlikely to want to waste more time than they have to moving around each other. It also brings about even more careful measuring and fiddly placing, something which in my experience takes the speed out of the game. So I like the movement as it is now, but that may just apply to my group.

Has anyone tried this? What are your experiences?


Last edited by Hasselt on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 8:00; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 7:44

Hasselt wrote:
In response to your reply on the movement-issue; from my the limited movement allows for less tactics, as warbands are unlikely to want to waste more time than they have to moving around each other. It also brings about even more careful measuring and fiddly placing, something which in my experience takes the speed out of the game. So I like the movement as it is now, but that may just apply to my group.

Has anyone tried this? What are your experiences?

I quite agree with you. I have played a lot of LotHS where all models have a standard Movement of 6" (no doubling) and it changes the game a lot. In fact, in my Gierburg skirmish game models have an even higher speed than in Mordheim/Warhammer. It adds a lot to the dynamics and tactics of Movement in a way I wouldn't want to miss. Doing quick moves and expecting the enemy to come up fast is part of what makes the skirmish experience for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 8:00

I think having less movement speed (and also reducing shooting range accordingly) makes players to put more thought to their movement choices, making the game deeper and complex (the good way) in that regard.

I think that by doing this modification, asp pretends to avoid that on the second turn you have all the minis positioned and engaged on HtH combat. Giving the first turns a more strategic factor, moving to defensive cover positions and to sniping friendly buildings, getting a hold of key areas on the board (think of it as chess, maybe?) so that when the HtH is inminent the players who made the better movement choices on the first round have some sort of advantage.

I like the sound of it in theory.. but I know nothing about the real thing. Never the less I like that change.


Last edited by Pirexian on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 8:22; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 8:07

I dunno, when we play the regular scenario's, only the ones that have the defender placed in a central position or scattered across the board have HtH on the second turn. Usually it takes at least 2-3 turns for the models to get within charge range, usually longer.

But then, we always play on a 120 cm x 120 cm table.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 10:34

the longer the movemen, the easier the game is on rookie players

shorter movement and missile ranges means that tacticaæ commitments cannot easily be undone
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 10:59

In regards to clubs being all around more effective while axes are only effective against armored targets:

You could make the club special rule flat out not effect models wearing light armor or heavy armor, or helmets if you hadn't taken them out. Or give clubs a +1 to armor save rolls, like the Rapier, so that targets that already have some form of armor get a bonus but unarmored models do not.

I guess I'm figuring that if axes work on armored people maybe clubs would be the opposite.


Also, the We'll Be Back rules: When a model with We'll Be Back goes OOA the owning player rolls a D6 at the beginning of their next turn. On a score of 4+ the model stands up again where it died (in 40k it has to rejoin a unit of the same type of model), otherwise the model is removed as normal. Doesn't work it killed by power weapons or attacks with twice the strength of the necron's toughness (as they've been blown to bits). There are also special items and units that enhance the effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 11:49

The user Asp has repeatedly infringed the forum rules and is now banned for a week.

Sorry for the inconvenience his behaviour has caused.

-AT

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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:44

@movement -1:
I still don't see how it generates more tactic, As I see it, racing forward with speed gives you less a forgiving situation. If you have little movement you must get more time (i.e more turns) to compensate your mistakes.
And how does this effect game length? I like to keep the Mordheim games quite short, so you can play perhaps two or three in an evening.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 20:44

I like the general streamlining of the rules, in that it speeds things up and makes tournament play easier - tournamentheim might be a fair name for it. But at the same time, I'm generally unconcerned with speed, I generally stack even more rules on top of the existing game, if anything, provided I'm playing with people who move quickly enough.

The axe thing is interesting... but I think I may be in the minority in that I think the rules for armor are generally okay. It is expensive, but the mercenaries battling in Mordheim aren't professional soldiers or great heroes... it's a skirmish game, so they're armed as such. As to it's effect, I don't even think about putting shields or armor on characters until they've learned both dodge and step aside, gained a few wounds and acquired a lucky charm, at which point it's usually worth the investment in armor.

Then again, we also usually do hw+shield = +1 to AS, and helmets add a further +1.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 21:11

Do you ever have warriors with a helmet, shield and gromriil armor running around with a 2+ save? If so do you call him the terminator? I guess a person with strength 4, mighty blow and a two handed weapon has -4 armor anyway so it's not so bad, real good against bows though.


Last edited by hero on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 21:13; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 21:13

Pretty much, yeah - he becomes a massive human beatstick/tank... but with the all the critical hits ignoring the armor, its not impossible to bring him down. You're right though, he's mostly resistant to missile fire, so he makes a good human shield.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 21:14

Think of the poor elves!
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 21:18

When we were running with these rules, I was using the Shadow Warriors at the time, and it didn't unbalance things too heavily. On the contrary, it balanced out the heavy shooting I was using somewhat.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Fri 9 Apr 2010 - 3:41

Mordoten wrote:
I love... lamp...

I love... desk...

Do you actually like those or are you just saying you love them because you saw them?

*holds newspaper ready* make my lamp punk.

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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Fri 9 Apr 2010 - 11:04

Loud noises!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Mon 12 Apr 2010 - 15:52

So far I've played a handful of games with the Coreheim rules and have mixed feelings about the reduced movement. Playing on a 4'x4' board, the first two turns usually involved moving pieces into position and a little shooting or casting. Having lower movement does make you think twice about moving pieces and getting them in proper position for charges. However, having reduced movement seemed to make players ignore scenario objectives and just go straight for the enemy. By sending a piece to search a building or get a shard of weird stone essentially took them out of the game due to the time It took them to get back into the fight. I recognize that this could just be a result of terrain/objective placement and scenario, or just playing style, but this was the case in all our battles.
The reduced movement did not lengthen the game simply because the rest of the game, a part from movement, is streamlined for speed. The extra time you spending moving your pieces into position is made up for by the speed increase in other parts of the game, i.e. the static hit chart.
Just a few observations from my group. I would be interested to read what others have found.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 16:22

I'm back. this controversy has been great for my traffic Smile thanks. Though I'd rather have some fair-minded moderation than extra traffic Sad

Reclaimer: This also happens with normal Mordheim. At least it has in every normal Mordheim group I ever played in. I sure would like to cure it, though I think the flaw lies in the scenarios themselves.

Quote :
The user Asp has repeatedly infringed the forum rules
and is now banned for a week.

Tom and Cianty: What rule did I break with my last post? - You list repreated infringements but please be more specific. You are also welcome to PM me.



I still have an honest question:

1
When Shadowphx said that I would have liked to beat him up, he accused me of being violent.
Other users interferred to note that it was unfounded.
Moderators took no action.
I let it slide. (Just like I did with the initial personal attacks in the old Coreheim-thread.)

2
Hasselt called me a Rape Apologist.
Other users interferred to note that it was unfounded.
I asked the Moderators to take action.
Cianty refused.
I made a similar unfounded accusation.


Obviously, if I am right in my recount, there has been some error in the moderation of this thread. But since that isn't the case, what is missing from my recap of this sequence?


Last edited by Asp on Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 18:05; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Wed 14 Apr 2010 - 17:42

I'm with you Asp. We do share opinions in this subject.

But... if something have I learned of lurking at forums over more than 8 years (not Mordheim, or even warhammer.. more like Ragnarok Online, Lineage2, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, etc... so yeah.. VERY conflictive forums let me say...) is that for this kind of controversies and/or discussions, is better to just let it go and solve things in private with the Mods. (by PM's)

Try to avoid confrontation, or eventually you'll get banned again Sad
Try to discuss and solve differences in private with them.

This is a nice forum to read and participate, surrounded by great people, personally, I'd prefer keeping a low profile and continue having a great inspirational source of feedback and ideas.

*Just my two cents of contribution.
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 1:10

Thank you Pirexian Smile!

Asp, you have no idea about what the moderating team does, or what discussion we have before we decide. Ofcourse we mentioned "protecting" you, but you always knew how to make some stupid comment making us feel opposed to that.

and for you being insulted and stuff like that, from what I have seen 9 out of 10 times you provoked it. The times you did not provoked it, we send a pm to the user to point out his bad behaviour.

and Asp, if you do not want to be referred to as a rape-apologist, why do you host such a RIDICULOUS (because that's what it is) Sisters of Sigmar FAQ? Are you trying to provoke people? are you actually TRYING to get discussions like this started? or are you to ignorant to see that some people might be offended?

Last, you did not do anything wrong in your last post, but the decission to ban you was discussed and decided before or maybe while you made that post. Dont you worry Asp, you weren't banned for your last post, you were banned for being a jerk in other posts.

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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 7:35

Now hold on, as a moderator, you need to choose your words wisely, you need to put the example to the users of the forum.. and IMO, including words in your phrases like jerk, stupid, etc in this kind of thread, usually ends up as the opposite of helping solve the problem..

It is tricky being a mod in a forum, been there before (as a user and an Admin). Asp try to understand them a little, they have to put order somehow and it isn't easy. Matt be more careful choosing the right way of saying things, in this threads people get easily fired up, even with minor words like "jerk", the tone in which you say things can be easily misunderstood, since this is a "written" communication method and there's no way of knowing for sure what tone of voice are you using, a simple phrase can be interpreted very differently with a tiny variation of the voice tone, keep that in mind.

I don't wanna get deeper into this matter, so this'll be my last post regarding this subject.


Last edited by Pirexian on Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 12:00; edited 1 time in total
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 8:34

i think the above speaks for itself...

thanks for elaborating
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 10:51

@Asp: I just saw the new 8.0 version of Coreheim. I've never played the LotR tabletop game you are referring to in the version history, so it may be of no surprise I find the changes to movement a bit curious. Your explanation is, "So the design is simpler, better, allows for more prescition[sic] and balance without adding complexity or slowing down play." Do you think you could elaborate further. I'm just not understanding the need for a change. Overall, I'm a big supporter of Coreheim, as you are probably aware. Thanks for the hard work.

Edit: Another point for clarification. When a warrior stands up from a knocked down state during the recovery phase, he is permitted to "half-move". With the changes to movement, this allows the warrior to move 3", in the case of a human warrior. Is this an intended consequence of the changes? In the previous version, the warrior standing up would only be permitted to move 1.5".
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 13:16

Quote :
Adapted the Lord of the Rings Movement System,
which
simply means:
- Warriors have a Movement Value (i.e. 6" for Humans, 8" for Skaven)
- There is no running
- There is no double Move when charging, just normal movement
- Warriors that wish to shoot or hide the same turn they moved, can only
move
half their Movement, rounded up.

i'd like to answer your question, but I don't understand it?

considder the base movement value the old RUNNING speed.

it is just assumed that models will always run UNLESS they:

- fire a missile weapon
- recover from being knocked down
- hide

in which case, they can only half-move (rounded down)

this makes it possible to operate with movement speeds of 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, instead of the old mordheim system that could only operate with 6, 8, 10 and 12

Quote :
In the previous version, the warrior standing up would only be permitted
to move 1.5".

no. half-moves are not a concept under normal movement rules.

half-moves are a concept of LoTR-movement rules.


Last edited by Asp on Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:17; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Coreheim   Thu 15 Apr 2010 - 14:12

How do you feel about getting rid of "can't run within 8" of enemy"? That rule prevents people from running away endlessly (not that I think running away endless is a bad thing necessarily).

I actually wanted to get rid of this rule (I like to be able to run away from minotaurs) but my friend is apparently afraid the game will degenerate into people just running around all over the place and never having to fight in close combat (he plays beastmen).
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