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Goosetipher
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PostSubject: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 9:24

I started playing WFB in 6th edition and picked up high elves. The consensus opinion seems to be that they were a little underpowered. However, since the 7th dropped, I've been on a tear. They seem too powerful, too easily. I'm not saying they're unbeatable, it's just that they don't really reward sound tactics as much as they used to.

Thoughts? concerns? rants?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 9:43

I can imagine that this is hard if your on the recieveing end, t surely if you tailor your own army to be less powerful you can overcome this obstacle? (I should be therapist! Imagine it: Dr. Greenberg's Psychiatric Hospital for Depressed Gamers.)
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 9:43

Well I've got a Night Goblin Protest Society [calling them an "army" is stretching the truth beyond all bounds Suspect ] SO...anything I'd have to say would be suspect. Let's just say that the "new" army list performs deviate sexual acts on the genitile apparatus of deceased male canines. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 10:23

You know, it's almost difficult to make a truly bad high elf army list. I try to play nicely, no sitting back and blasting away, but when my archers are breaking units that charge them it just gets kind of ridiculous. I feel bad even putting sword masters on the table against some armies (especially VC...no shooting makes the SMs hard to beat) but I love that unit. They were my first non-core elf buy way back, largely for fluff reasons. Actually, I'm currently trying to change one of shadow warriors into a swordmaster in our mordheim campaign with powerful build, mighty blow, strongman, and lightning reflexes. Slap a two-handed weapon in his hands, change the names of the skills to something elfy (prissy) and boom goes the dynamite. I want to use that cool eltharion model, eventually.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 10:56

We are actually on the same page. Collecting minis because you LOVE them is a far cry from assembling an army that is virtually unbeatable. You're a Good Fellow, Goose! thumbsup
Is Eltharion [not to be confused with Our Own Forumite by the same name Suspect ] the blind pointy eared Guy with the seriously large sword? If so, that IS a VERY cool mini [for an Elf Suspect ]. Karate
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 11:06

Nala, our own forumite is called Ethlorien, not Eltharion Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 11:25

lol! OH YEAH, that's the Guy!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 11:53

Hey Goose!

Actually I have been wondering if it was just me... now that I heard it from a HE player, it confirms my observations.

High Elves seem pretty flawless. The only way I see of standing a chance against them (with my wood elves), is by shooting all I have at them, taking as many dispell scrolls as I can possibly carry, pray for enough wood-scenery, and hope that their repeater Bolt throwers won't decimate my ranks.

I would be very afraid of getting into CC with them. The always strike first rule is insane... you cannot hope to charge anything and live through it.

(HE Spearmen fight on THREE ranks, and always strike first, when charged, am I right?)

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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 11:57

That's right. It's rather like diving into a blender. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 13:04

What! THREE ranks! Always STRIKE FIRST! That's insane! The only time that you want to get charged...
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 13:11

Skip the "smells funny" thingy. Now there's a REALLY EXCELLENT reason why Goblins fear High Elves. affraid
Of course, they DO smell funny, & there IS the rumor of TRULY strange sexual practices. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 13:53

Yes, the current High Elves SEEM pretty overpowered. However I just cannot believe that they are. I know, GW is shit a balancing their WHFB armies (to the point I am convinced they do it on purpose to incite people to start a new army after another just to be "on top" constantly) but ther MUST be a way of defeating them.

I think I could dream up a few tactics with my Woodies (they have never failed me).

However with my Dark Elves, I see no option to defeat HE... Dark Elves are just not fast enough to outmanoeuvre HE, they have no Magic good enough to do any harm (HE too good at draining magic/dispelling), DE cannot outgun HE (the DE bold thrower is essentially the same as the HE one, except they cannot include as many in an army as HE). The only solution I see is going into CC and having as many assassins as possible hidden in your regiments.

Oh and Harpies. I think they would be crucial at delaying the enemy.... hmmm, that makes me think about those harpy conversions I wanted to make Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Mon 23 Feb 2009 - 23:08

If you think spearelves are bad, get this. You know, it's pretty usual to have a smaller, harder hitting unit in support of a larger core high static CR. I had just gotten the new book so I went with a common tactic, a small unit of swordmasters deployed in support of spear elves. That line of of seven swordmasters wiped out everything it touched. It got charged by heavy cav, a block of big 'uns. It lasted much longer that the "big" unit it was supporting. just unfair really. I mean, 7 Sm's end up having fifteen attacks at weapon skill 6 str 5 ASF. All the static CR in the world isn't going to save you.

I think you'd be fine with most wood elf builds. HE are T3 across the board and, aside from cavalry, have poor armor saves. Watch carefully any "elite" unit of the high elves. Their champions can take 25 points of magic items, including the 15 pt ammy of light that makes the unit's attacks magical. I played one game against WE and utterly destroyed them, but I got a crucial spell of early that just wiped out a chunk of elves, so I don't really have a good benchmark.

Chariots will absolutely destroy HE, as impacts hits occur before ASF. Bizarrely, magic can be extremely effective. Despite all of their prowess at dispelling, HE don't generate may dispel dice. If you can lock down Drain Magic, it can be pretty easy to rain down magical hell on the poor T3 elves.

It's actually kinda funny, but the woefully underpowered Ogre Kingdoms can do really well IF they can survive the bolt throwers

Also, any T4 troops can wipe the floor with spearelves. a five front will kill 2-3 models a turn, max (assuming a 5+ save). Since elves are so fragile, that's usually not enough to win the combat.

Be afraid if you're up against a WaaC HE player. remember that they can put 15-19 power dice on the table if they want to (2000+)

I haven't played against the DE yet, but I think that they could have a definite edge in lower point games. They have some really nifty magic items that when combined with they're ability to throw unlimited dice (up to the amount that they have) can overwhelm lower level defenses, particularly since most HE players don't usually take many scrolls.

I've heard people say that VC is even more overpowered than the elves, but none of my battles against them have been even close, so I disagree, but maybe they just match up poorly.

The thing is, I know I'm only a fair general. I'm a good strategist, but I often make mistakes on the tabletop.

I think that new Lizardmen will be able to stop the HEs cold in close combat, but we'll see. the 2+ armor save on infantry should give them the survivability to hit back and crush the pointy-ears

You know, I've never, ever, felt the urge to collect another army, but I just started an empire collection to have some more fun playing the game. I think that says a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 5:11

Hmmm, if they fight in three ranks does that mean that units will be around five ranks deep? Cannons may be the answer.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 6:12

Well... I still tend to fail at winning with them haha... then again, I hardly ever win a game...

there are a lot of fun options, which make smaller battles a bit tricky... a dragon at 1000 points makes one hell of a target... and it is a weak dragon...
Lion Chariot, yes, I love that one, and the Sword masters are great..

The spearmen are weak, even though fighting in 3 ranks... so if you outnumber them (possibly while causing fear) you'll chase them of the field in no time - and they are expensive!

just like the entire army is expensive... it's possible to field a mere 23 models in a 1000 point battle... now give it a try with gobbo's... outnumbering and manouvring gives you the advantage...

I do agree that GW seems to make every new release stronger then the last... and I hope they will seize doing that (specially since I have good chances now with my elves! haha)
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 6:44

As an avowed critic of GW's business ethics take the following cum grano salo Suspect .
The "new" army books & codexes do tend to be geared less & less at making the game balanced & enhancing the character of the armies & the game AND more to selling minis particularly to the power gamers that their tournament mind set attract. The up scaled "BIG" battle things like Armageddon, Legendary Battles, & the larger version of LotR likewise seem to be a push to escalate their sales. Wonder why they no longer support games like Mordheim & Necromunda, eh? Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 7:20

Why I can't believe I missed this thread. One, my name came up, and two, my main Warhammer army is High Elves. Love those pointy earned fellows! Beem with me since early 6th ed.

Personally, while the soldiers are good, I find a lot comes down to how their general uses them. And trust me, I don't use them too well. Smile My armies are built for fluff over anything else, so I don't always have the best army list to fight with. Also, as far as power goes, I find that while they may have seemed powerful at first, I do find this seems to be the way GW is going with their armies. Warriors of Chaos, Vampires, Daemons (who I've never played, but hear their waaay more overpowered then High Elves), etc...

For me, with the 7th ed, I love the variety you can build with them. What with their special and rare choices being increased, you can come up with a lot of different builds no matter the battle size you're playing - so yeah, they do have that (among other things) as a big advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 8:57

And I do love the fact that that their skills finally match the fluff... Yeah, thousands of years of practise with a blade/bow/magic and your skills are still the same as a lousy empire footsoldier? not likely!

so the always strike first rule is a good thing in my opinion as is the high weapon skill - I'm a fluff player as well -
Also, in line with HE fluff.. a true HE general will not sacrifice any lives needlessly, and will always try to keep everyone save as they're dying out... so, if you play like a true elf, then they're not too unbalanced...
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 9:17

lol! The Guys I've seen playing in the Rogue Trader Tourneys play like Attilla the Hun only more obnoxious. Suspect

NEWS FLASH! I JUST got a Forge World piece to do as a commission thingy, AND inside was an announcement of a price DECREASE!....IT'S THE BIG ONE! [clasps chest..crumples to the floor Suspect ] cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 9:29

Deaf . . . Deaf? Oh God! I need a defibrillator stat!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 9:45

*hands defibirllator to Ethlorien*

*looks at Deaf with concern*

So... any info on what models EXACTLY will get cheaper?

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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 9:58

All of them. The price decrease in Pounds start at .05 on a 2.00 order to 20.00 on a 895.00 order. Of course they're still out of my price bracket, but then what isn't?! Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 11:02

Don't get me wrong. I love my elves, especially their fluff. I just went suddenly from winning a little more than half of the time to winning 90% of the time. Sure, part of that is people's lack of familiarity with the new rules, but it seems excessive. IMO, the elves did need a boost, if only because their old format forced you into certain patterns of play. Sitting back and shooting against most armies was a little dull.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 11:17

Goosetipher wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I love my elves

Speaking of that... any pics? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 7th edition high elves   Tue 24 Feb 2009 - 11:33

Well YOU didn't create whatever imbalance that might exist. AND I'm sure you're right in saying the HE need a boost.

I'm not crazy about the Core HE minis, but some of the Special & Rare Choices like the SM & the Lions are REALLY cool. HE seem to be an army you either love or hate with no neutral ground whatsoever. thumbsup

The "new" O&G book was an absolute bust around here where it's EITHER an Orc OR a Goblin army thing. AND they gutted the Goblins. It went from 12 Guys raising Goblins or Night Goblins to just me with my NGs & several Orc players who now had some Goblin units at discount prices. Then when 7th Edition came out WFB just disappeared into that Dark & Secret Coven World previously occupied by Mordheim & Necromunda. Well that's my rant for today; sorry if it's off topic. Suspect
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