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 A "New" Shadow Warriors list

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Oldcastle
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PostSubject: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:07

Many players talk about how the Shadow Warrior list is overpowered. And, stat wise, they are. The high costs of some warriors does not always seem to balance the stats and special rules. This is an attempt to bring stats and rules into possibly more balanced mode. Details of the changes will follow the list itself. This is kind of a preview, leading to a more generalized High Elf/Wood Elf list.

THIS HAS NOT BEEN TESTED IN A CAMPAIGN YET. THIS IS POSTED FOR COMMENTS AND CRITICS. USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK… (although, if you use it, Please post opinions on it, as I would greatly appreciate feedback...)

This is broken over several posts...

Background – Shadow Warriors are loyal to the Phoenix King, but see potential enemies in every corner. This attitude is not always viewed favorably in the court of the King, as the need for allies against the Dark Elves and the forces of Chaos are often desired.

Some groups of the warriors of Nagarythe start their training by wandering the world, learning of other races. This learning, of their ways and motivations, are almost always taken with the view of how to eventually fight them. Shadow Warriors see the potential taint of Chaos in almost everyone. They note how evil tempts even other Elves, and distrust those different than themselves.

However, these wandering bands often fight Chaos and Evil wherever they find it, as the slowing of the spread of Chaos helps the High Elves, and slows the ever expanding power of Chaos.
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:07

Special Rules –

Eternal Hatred –
Shadow Warriors hate all races except High Elves or Wood Elves. Elf Rangers and Elf Mages are considered High Elves for this rule. In addition, their hatred for their Dark Elf enemies knows no bounds; they gain the Hatred benefits every round of combat when fighting Dark Elves.

Excellent Sight – Elves have excellent eyesight and add 3 to their initiative when determining ranges to detect Hidden enemies. Skills or Abilities that modify Initiative when checking for Hidden enemies do not modify this bonus. For example, if an enemy causes people to use half their initiative to detect them when hidden, Shadow Warriors would use half initiative +3 to determine the range.

Distaste for Poison – Poison is a Dark Elf specialty. Shadow Warriors will never use poison, or ally with / hire anyone who does.

At Arms Reach – While not openly against some races, the hatred Shadow Warriors feel toward others prevents this band from allying with any war band other than other High or Wood elves. They simply cannot muster that much trust.

Coin buys Faith – Shadow Warriors understand the need to occasionally hire a local with a special skill they may need. And they know that coin buys faith; at least for a while. Shadow Warriors can hire any non-evil Hired Sword or Dramatis Persona that does not use poison. However, if they keep them for more than 1 battle, they must pay an additional 5 GC in upkeep, to reflect the extra coin needed to overcome the unfriendly attitude the warband projects.

You expect to find an elf here? – When recruiting extra Henchmen after a campaign starts, all rules for hiring Henchmen apply. In addition, Shadow Warrior Henchmen are considered a Rare item and their availability must be rolled like any other rare item. It may be that there are no Elves to recruit in the area. A band that wants to guarantee the ability to hire a henchman may instead sacrifice dice in the search phase. Each die sacrificed in the search phase means that Rarity roll is reduced by 6. The rarity level is listed in the Henchmen section.

Choice of Warriors – A Shadow Warrior band has 500 GC to start with. It must include at least 3 models. The maximum size of the warband is 12.

HEROES

Shadow Walker: Each warband must have one Shadow Walker leader, no more, no less.

Shadow Weaver: The warband may include 1 Shadow Weaver.

Shadow Warriors: The warband may include up to 3 Shadow Warriors in the band.

HENCHMEN
Shadow Novices: The warband may have any number of Shadow Novices

War Lions: The warband may include up to 2 War Lions.

Starting Experience –

Shadow Walker start with 20 experience.

Shadow Warriors and Shadow Weavers all start with 12 experience.

Shadow Novices and War Lions start with no experience.

Skills –

Shadow Walker - Combat, Shooting, Academic, Speed, Special
Shadow Warrior - Combat, Shooting, Speed, Special
Shadow Walker - Combat, Academic, Speed, Special

The Special Skill set is the same as in the original Shadow Warriors list


Last edited by Oldcastle on Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:28; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:16

1 Shadow Walker70 Gold Crowns to hire

A Shadow Walker is considered to have made friends with the darkness, and while he does not
command it, it gives him aid when asked. Shadow Walkers are seasoned veterans in the war against the Dark Elves. They are skilled trackers and hunters, and the Warband’s captain.

Often a member of the former Nagarythe nobility, these proud and strong-willed warriors often gather a small band of their followers and seek a life away from the hesitant charity and istasteful stares of Ulthuan.

Profile

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5  5  4 3 3 1 6 1  9


Weapons and Armour: Shadow Walkers may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Shadow Warrior Equipment list.

SPECIAL RULES

Leader: Any warrior within 6" of the Shadow Master may use his Leadership characteristic when taking any Leadership tests.

0-3 Shadow Warriors
45 Gold Crowns to hire

Most of the warriors in the Shadow Warrior Warband are veterans of at least one battle, and all have lost loved ones to the depravity of the Dark Elves.

Profile
Code:
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5  4  4 3 3 1 6 1  8


Weapons and Armour: Shadow Warriors may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Shadow Warrior Equipment list.

0-1 Shadow Weaver55 Gold Crowns to hire

All High Elves have some aptitude for magic, and those with the greatest aptitude are taught how to bend the Winds of Magic to their will. Shadow Weavers are the mages of Nagarythe. Due to the nature of their unending war against the Dark Elves, the mages of Nagarythe tend to specialise in magics that use shadows to conceal their presence and confound their enemies. In fact the title Shadow Weaver comes from the nature of their magic… like a talented tailor,

the Shadow Weaver takes the threads of shadow and fashions them into shapes and forms of his choosing.

Profile

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5  3  3 3 3 1 6 1  8


Weapons and Armour: Shadow Weavers may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Shadow Warrior Equipment list, but they may not cast spells if wearing armour.

SPECIAL RULES

Wizard: The Shadow Weaver is a wizard and may use the Shadow Magic list. The Shadow Magic List is the same as in the original Shadow Warrior list

Henchmen
0+ Shadow Warrior Novices
35 Gold Crowns to hire (Rare 8 )

These are untested Shadow Elves, newly inducted into the warband. Often these warriors are younger cousins who are setting out from Ulthuan for the first time. Due to their hard existence, it is often a quick progression from Novice to full Warrior, however.

Profile

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5  3  3 3 3 1 6 1  7



Weapons and Armour: Shadow Novices may be equipped with weapons and armour chosen from the Shadow Warrior Equipment list.

0-2 War Lions
40 Gold Crowns to hire (Rare 12)

Occasionally High Elves will capture a white lion cub and train it. While these will not be the great Chariot pulling beasts the Woodsmen create, it is a fierce combatant, and loyal to the elves around it.

Profile

Code:
M WS BS S T W I A LD
8  4  0 4 3 1 4 2  5


Weapons and Armour: A War Lion does not use any weapons or armour.

SPECIAL RULES

Animal: As an animal, a War Lion cannot carry anything. A War Lion does not gain any experience or skills.




Last edited by Oldcastle on Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:30; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:19

SHADOW WARRIOR EQUIPMENT LIST

The following lists are used by Shadow Warrior warbands to pick their weapons:

Hand-to-hand Combat Weapons

Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1st free/2 gc
Sword . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Ithilmar weapon* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 x price

Missile Weapons
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Longbow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Elf Bow* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .35 gc

Armour
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc
Light armour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Ithilmar armour* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60 gc

Miscellaneous
War Horn of Nagarythe* . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc
Elven Cloak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75 gc
Elven Wine* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 gc
Elven Runestones* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 gc

* – Heroes only.

These special prices represent the lower rarity of these items in Ulthuan;when attempting to purchase these items outside of Ulthuan, Shadow Warriors pay the same prices as other Warbands, and must roll to find them as normal. No roll is necessary to find these items when first starting a Shadow Warrior Warband.

(Special Items are detailed in the original Shadow Warriors lists, and are not changed here)

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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 16:19

Reasoning behind the changes –

First, The general opinion is that the old list was too overpowered when compared to the core groups. Well, looking at comparable character stat lines on the Mercenary lines, I saw the obvious stat differences. A SW Henchman matched a Mercenary Champion, while a Walker matched the Captain, and the Shadow Master (Original Leader) was just plain better across the board at roughly the same price.

So, I took out the Shadow Master, and basically moved Walkers and Warriors up a rung (Walkers became the leaders, Warriors the Heroes). This brings the stat lines closer, but still a little better.

Now, the special rules… where I expect a large debate…

I tried to get close to the current WHFB rules, but still make the band playable. Thus, while Eternal Hatred gives them Hatred against everyone, It also prevents alliances (which may affect multiplayer games). I cut back on the Spot Hidden bonus, but left it fairly high still.

I increased the maintenance cost of Hired Swords to help reflect that “hate everyone” attitude that would surely rub other people wrong…

And I added the Rarity roll to Henchmen after the start simply because it makes little sense that Elves would be widely available to recruit outside Ulthian. The “sacrifice a die to modify the roll” is meant to reflect the commitment to locating a replacement, over finding treasures to increase the coffers.

I added War Lions simply because I think the models are neat… a weakness of mine…
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Mon 29 Dec 2008 - 18:59

Quote :
So, I took out the Shadow Master, and basically moved Walkers and Warriors up a rung (Walkers became the leaders, Warriors the Heroes). This brings the stat lines closer, but still a little better.
Considering Shadow "Masters" aren't part of the standarrd Warhammer Fantasy game I think this fits flavour-wise as well.

Quote :
I tried to get close to the current WHFB rules, but still make the band playable. Thus, while Eternal Hatred gives them Hatred against everyone, It also prevents alliances (which may affect multiplayer games).
Since Shadow Warrior in-game would hate anyone opposing them (thus on the side of evil) I think they should hate any elves not part of their warband, as well as everyone else.

Quote :
I increased the maintenance cost of Hired Swords to help reflect that “hate everyone” attitude that would surely rub other people wrong…
Theoretically, since Shadow Elves don't really like anyone or anyone who has worked with someone they don't like, this would probably prevent them from hiring anyone not a Elf Ranger or Elf Mage.

Quote :
And I added the Rarity roll to Henchmen after the start simply because it makes little sense that Elves would be widely available to recruit outside Ulthian. The “sacrifice a die to modify the roll” is meant to reflect the commitment to locating a replacement, over finding treasures to increase the coffers.
Fair enough. Would also slow Shadow Elves gaining more equipment for their higher skilled warriors.

Quote :
I added War Lions simply because I think the models are neat… a weakness of mine…
Balance wise, sort of makes sense (i.e. I cant recall any warband only offering 1 henchman choice). Flavour wise... they don't fit...
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 10:12

Quote :
I added War Lions simply because I think the models are neat… a weakness of mine…
Balance wise, sort of makes sense (i.e. I cant recall any warband only offering 1 henchman choice). Flavour wise... they don't fit...[/quote]

Fair enough. I have thought of Eagles (not giant eagles, but regular ones) as something the band might have. I'll have to throw some ideas together and post that option. They would probably be the "cheap" model, and not very tough.
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 10:26

I had done up a list, where the magic user of the warband could summon eagles / dragons etc. Not a model itself to land and fight in the game (simply too overpowered) but rather worked out as a game benefit. While we playtested the warband a little, my opponent using the warband never got around to hiring the wizard hero. If I remember correctly, when the Great Eagle was summoned, it simply flew over the battlefield and surveyed everything - making all hidden enemies now vissible. It's an option to add the beast without physically adding it to the warband.
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 12:42

Well, I thought about ideas for a bit... Here is an idea...

Replace War Lion Above with the following -

0-2 Hunting Eagles
15 GC to Hire (Rare 6)
Elves have long had an affinity for the hunting Birds of the mountains and forests. While the armies of the Phoenix King often call upon the Great Eagles to aid them, Shadow Warriors use the more common eagles and hawks. They train them to aid in the hunt, and finding their enemies.

Profile
Code:
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
12 4  0 2 2 1 4 1  5

Weapons and Armor - Eagles use no weapons or armor

Special Rules

Animal - Eagles cannot carry anything, and cannot gain experience.

Flight - An Eagle's movement is considered flight. It ignores difficult terrain, and can fly up walls, etc. without making a climb role.

Keen Eyed - Like Elves, Eagles add +3 to their Initiative to spot Hidden opponents.

Fighting on the Wing - As Eagles attack while in Flight, any charge they make is treated as a Diving Charge, giving them +1 S and +1 to hit in the first round of Combat. Also, as eagles cannot hover, they are constantly moving; they have the Side Step ability in Close Combat. Also, given the size of eagles, their attacks are considered to be Daggers (giving their opponent a +1 armor save)


The above may be more in line Fluff wise...
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Tue 30 Dec 2008 - 12:52

Oh, to go with the above - the following are 25mm minis cast in Tin, that could be usable. They have some decore stuff as well... the overall stuff is worth a look.

http://cgi.ebay.com/DEAL-40013b-Hawk-Flying-miniature-25mm-ANIMAL_W0QQitemZ140152291190QQihZ004QQcategoryZ2537QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://cgi.ebay.com/DEAL-40013a-Eagle-Flying-miniature-25mm-ANIMAL_W0QQitemZ140152290846QQihZ004QQcategoryZ2537QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

http://cgi.ebay.com/MEM-40013-Birds-of-Prey-x-12-miniature-25mm-ANIMAL_W0QQitemZ140151484500QQihZ004QQcategoryZ2537QQcmdZViewItem
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Wed 31 Dec 2008 - 9:54

Hi Oldcastle,

Read the list, and it looks interesting - it's good to see a list that tries to balance the perceived strengths of the Shadow Warriors, without taking from their 'feel' too much.

As far as the cats are concerned - I know you like the war lion models, but I don't know that it has to be a huge problem. I remember in the old Wood Elves list (ok, I know Shadow Warriors aren't Wood Elves, but...) that there was a Beastmaster who had access to dogs, big cats, and even a bear. Nice models too...). Certainly in terms of balance issues it makes a lot of sense.
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 7:04

YEs i agree this list looks intresting i have wood elves to but i dont play them cause they are to experimantal i think
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 13:39

One thing I've always found odd is that they all have the same Init stat. Why not let all but the leader have Init 5? They're still the fastest race in the Mordheim world (disregarding Dark Elves, which have the same "flaw").
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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Wed 27 Apr 2011 - 15:41

A year or so back I worked up an alternative band with help from folks on Warseer. My goal was to balance the shadow elves while keeping the superior stats (so they would remain consistent with warhammer, the Elf Ranger henchman, etc.). The main changes were to reduce the starting heroes to four (where you still keep five) and to use rare search rolls to recruit henchmen, which you have also hit upon.

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PostSubject: Re: A "New" Shadow Warriors list   Today at 18:52

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