Light Armor and shield question

I have a quick question and not the time to search for a previous post.

My group doesn't buy armor. Usually a waste of good gold.

Light Armor 6+ save
Shield 6+ save

But is Light Armor and Shield a 5+ save or two 6+ saves?

Meaning: do I roll one 1D6, for 5+ save, or roll 2D6 looking for 6+ on one of them?

Light armour and a shield combine into a 5+ save.
Heavy armour and a shield would combine into a 4+ save.

Thank you. That's what I thought.

Unless otherwise stated, armour saves stack into one armour save. The value of armour (light or heavy), shield, & if the model is mounted (& if the mount has barding) all go into that save.

Sometimes an item will specify it can't be combined with other saves -- like I think toughened leathers can't be used with other saves, which is why they're so cheap. Or sometimes an ability gives an additional save -- like Step Aside, which expressly states it's an additional save, after all regular armour saves.

My thinking was to start using Toughened Leathers and Shield.  I don't see that they can not be combined saves. In HtH, I use two weapons, the leathers would be give a 6+ A.S. (5+ verses dagger). And with a Shield on his back would give a 5+ A.S. verses ranged attacks.

Quote from Annual:

Toughened Leathers 5 gc Common
Expert leatherworkers are able to turn leather coats into
armour (after a fashion) and those with limited funds often
favour these jackets and coats as armour is very expensive.
Covered with crusted salt, alcohol and other less savoury
materials, toughened leather is hard to penetrate and offers
some protection in combat.

Special Rules: Toughened leathers work exactly like light
armour, giving the wearer a 6+ Armour save, but cannot be
combined with the effects of any other armour except a
helmet or buckler. Toughened leathers cannot be sold back at
the Trading Posts , the stench alone is enough to drive away
even the most desperate of buyers!

Shadowphx wrote:

I don't see that they can not be combined saves [...] but cannot be
combined with the effects of any other armour except a
helmet or buckler.

It's right there. A buckler is not a shield (in the rulebook). Maybe there is a FAQ that states things otherwise I'm not aware of. Also remember the Toughened Leather is for heroes only.
Edit: also, if you are in HtH with two daggers, you don't get the AS from the shield if someone shot at you.

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Maybe there is a FAQ that states things otherwise I'm not aware of

There are lots of FAQs, but none of them touch toughened leathers or makes bucklers into shields (although some house rules do count bucklers as shields, but we can't answer for house rules. Especially crazy ones.)

Note that Toughened Leathers only won't stack with a shield. This means it *will* stack with things like the Wolf Cloak (and possibly the Seadragon Cloak, I forget). It will also stack with a dagger's +1 to AS giving you a 5+ save vs daggers.

In my group we houseruled that Toughened Leathers and Ithilmar armour counted as a kind of Light Armour that anyone who could use Light Armour could use. We also have a houserule that gives shields and bucklers an additional +1 AS in melee that Toughened Leathers *does* stack with. We do *not* play with any house rule that makes armour less expensive.

This led to people actually using leathers on their heroes because they could now hand them down to henchmen and henchmen wearing leathers led to fewer people cheaping out on massed henchmen armed only with daggers, or, at best, a dagger and a club. It also led to more people using shields and buckers instead of everyone dual-wielding. Didn't *replace* dual-wielding though, so I think we have the balance about right. Well, for our group, at least .

Follow up question. Toughed Leathers can not be combined with the effects of other armor. Meaning a Shield with Toughed Leathers does not provide a 5+ armor save. But could the combination be two 6+ armor saves? Meaning 6+ from the shield and a 6+ from the Toughened Leathers. Or is that considered a re-rolling a failed armor save?

I'd say that was re-rolling a failed armour save. In other games where this sort of thing has come up, you've had to pick one of your save options to use -- like in 40k, Sisters of Battle have a 3+ Armour Save from Power Armour & a 6+ Invulnerable Save from their faith in the Emperor; you have to choose which you're using in any given save roll, & not use both.

That said, I've always felt the rule that Toughened Leathers can't be combined with a Shield was a very silly rule -- I think it was included to make Leathers worse than Light Armour, to justify both existing, but it doesn't make any real sense. Why would protective clothing & a shield not be better? & given how rarely players take shields in Mordheim, compared to dual-wielding, any extra rule that makes Shields less attractive seems frustrating.

Rhydderch wrote:

That said, I've always felt the rule that Toughened Leathers can't be combined with a Shield was a very silly rule -- I think it was included to make Leathers worse than Light Armour, to justify both existing, but it doesn't make any real sense. Why would protective clothing & a shield not be better? & given how rarely players take shields in Mordheim, compared to dual-wielding, any extra rule that makes Shields less attractive seems frustrating.

It just points to the fumble that is the armour rules in Mordheim. Really, why is there even 'Hardened leathers' in the game; it is just 'Light Armour' after all.

I have always thought of it as something of a combination of a rounding artifact and the fact that a d6 only has 6 sides.

Light armour has an armour value* of 1, therefore you need to roll a 6 to generate the 7+ needed for a save. I think a shield has an armour value of 0.5 that rounds up to 1 so you need a 6+ to save. Toughened leathers has an armour value of 0.5 also, so that will round up to 1 when it is by itself, but will add up to a total of 1 when added to a shield - thus resulting in a 6+ save.

*Armour saves use exactly the same mechanic as Ballistic Skill i.e. d6+skill; if you total 7+ you succeed. I don't know why GW uses the underlying stat for Ballistic Skill, but only gives the dice roll needed for Armour Value.

Codsticker wrote:

It just points to the fumble that is the armour rules in Mordheim. Really, why is there even 'Hardened leathers' in the game; it is just 'Light Armour' after all.

I wouldn't say the Mordheim armour rules are a fumble -- armour's supposed to be a luxury item in the context of the mercenary ruffians of the City of the Damned, so I'm fine with the pricing, & making it much better in terms of gameplay can be really frustrating to play against, to the point it ceases to be fun.

For comparison, in Shadow War: Armageddon, some character classes (Chaos Marines, Inquisitors) could get, or even came with, power armour & a 3+ save. Other characters (Imperial Guardsmen) came with a heavy coat & a knife, with the option of buying a lasgun. No matter how many guardsmen you had, you weren't likely to dent the power armoured monster, & the game got very boring.

I can also understand why people wanted a cheaper armour option, & why the writers felt they had to make it somehow worse than light armour to justify anyone getting light armour ever again.... but not working with a shield seems a lousy solution. Giving it a chance of falling apart after each save would make more sense... wait, I might use that...

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I wouldn't say the Mordheim armour rules are a fumble -- armour's supposed to be a luxury item in the context of the mercenary ruffians of the City of the Damned, so I'm fine with the pricing, & making it much better in terms of gameplay can be really frustrating to play against, to the point it ceases to be fun.

I didn't find that but my reguar opponent fields a Minotaur with 2 hand weapons; I think a base save of 4+ wouldn't be unbalancing. Koyote on LAF is running a Mordheim campaign this fall and he is swapping out the -1 movement penalty for wearing heavy armour for -1 Initiative; his thread is here for those interested.

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I can also understand why people wanted a cheaper armour option, & why the writers felt they had to make it somehow worse than light armour to justify anyone getting light armour ever again.... but not working with a shield seems a lousy solution. Giving it a chance of falling apart after each save would make more sense... wait, I might use that...