mutations for possessed

hi all.

i started a possessed warband and after 5 games i got 300 gc saved up to invest in a second possessed.
(The first possessed has 2 extra arms and daemon soul).

what mutations would you suggest (and explain why, if you were so kind )?

enemy warbands i will encounter are witchhunters, skaven, undead, beastmen and possessed.

I thought about extra arm (40) , extra arm (80), spines (70) = 280

or extra arm (40), extra arm (80), daemon soul (40) = 250


p.s. i don't quite understand how blackblood and spines work:

do they negate armour saves and step aside? can they really auto-ooA/wound kd and stunned models in BTB?

For Possessed the Great Claw is a better mutation than extra arm, because Possessed don't use weapons, so they don't lose the potential of an attack. So it's 10 crowns to give the bonus attack +1 Str. I'm generally partial to the combination of Spines and a Tentacle myself. The tentacles is great on a 2 wound model with Fear and a Lucky Charm, makes it very survivable. Spines are great for knocking off Lucky Charms automatically, and yes, they really do work like normal attacks on knocked down and stunned models. Nothing in their rules allows them to bypass armor and step aside though.

You could get Possessed (90) + Great Claw (50) + Spines (60) + Tentacle (70) = 270

thank you for the response noisyassassin

i have some follow-up questions though, if i may:

1) why do you consider the great claw better than the extra arm (in case of the possessed)?

i thought the great claw to be inferior to the extra arm because you need an arm first which can be mutated, so the question would boild down to get either an additional attack or raise one of the existing attacks by S+1.

or did i miss something?


2) great idea with the spines activating the lucky charms, never thought of that.

btw i always thought that lucky charms don't work against automatic hits because there is no "to hit roll" whereas the lucky charm avoids being HIT. was i wrong here then?


3) do the tentacles allow to reduce -1 attack of EACH model in BTB? i guess that it does not...

Dahag wrote:

1) why do you consider the great claw better than the extra arm (in case of the possessed)?

i thought the great claw to be inferior to the extra arm because you need an arm first which can be mutated, so the question would boild down to get either an additional attack or raise one of the existing attacks by S+1.

or did i miss something

The way it works (how I understand it) - it takes a arm, but because the Possesed dont use weapons it dont loose a attack (like the Mutant would), so you gain +1 A with +1 S. Naked Possesed with Claw = 2 S4 attacks and 1 S5 attack.

Hope this makes sense.

Dahag wrote:

2) great idea with the spines activating the lucky charms, never thought of that.

btw i always thought that lucky charms don't work against automatic hits because there is no "to hit roll" whereas the lucky charm avoids being HIT. was i wrong here then?

A hit is a hit... So first hit counts on the Lucky Charm.

Dahag wrote:

Tue 19 May 2015 - 21:06  
thank you for the response noisyassassin Smile

i have some follow-up questions though, if i may:

1) why do you consider the great claw better than the extra arm (in case of the possessed)?

i thought the great claw to be inferior to the extra arm because you need an arm first which can be mutated, so the question would boild down to get either an additional attack or raise one of the existing attacks by S+1.

or did i miss something?


2) great idea with the spines activating the lucky charms, never thought of that.

btw i always thought that lucky charms don't work against automatic hits because there is no "to hit roll" whereas the lucky charm avoids being HIT. was i wrong here then?


3) do the tentacles allow to reduce -1 attack of EACH model in BTB? i guess that it does not...

I think its ONE model loose one attack..

I agree with NoisyAssassin, Great Claw is great.. I also like the Black Blood and Spines. Tentacle is not good on a Mutant (loosing a attack), but great for Possesed. Im not a fan of Deamon Soul, if there are a lot of spell casters, I guess it can work, but not sure it would be worth it.

Personally I want to try 2x Great Claw + Black Blood some day.

-Skavenslayer

Skavenslayer has it right on all counts!

For the spines, even though they don't need a "to hit" roll, they still cause a S1 hit, so they'll trigger the charms. The same applies to falling damage too!

Skavenslayer wrote:

The way it works (how I understand it) - it takes a arm, but because the Possesed dont use weapons it dont loose a attack (like the Mutant would), so you gain +1 A with +1 S. Naked Possesed with Claw = 2 S4 attacks and 1 S5 attack.

Won't it be 2 Strength 5 attacks and one Strength 4 Attack

Because a warrior with 2 attacks armed with a sword and a dagger can make either 2 sword attacks and one dagger or 2 dagger attacks and one sword.

first of all, thanks a lot guys for your explanations and suggestions

I'm still a little confused about the great claw rule.

Skavenslayer wrote:

Naked Possesed with Claw = 2 S4 attacks and 1 S5 attack.

Actually I agree with Skavenslayer but a friend in my group argues, that the A2 of the possessed
represent one attack with the right and one with the left arm. so if you mutate one of these arms into
a claw this would grant you a possessed with 1S4 (e.g unmutated right arm) + 1S5 (e.g left arm with claw).

I think my friend is wrong but can't exactly put my finger on it ...

Although it's intuitive to think that the Possessed's two attack come from attacking one with each arm there isn't anything in the rules that supports this. Instead they simply have two attacks, and two arms that aren't being used for anything. So you couldn't give three Great Claws to a Possessed without adding an extra arm for example.

@Phantasmal Fiend: that would be similar to how it would work for a Mutant who had gotten a claw and an Attack increase, but the same thing that allows the Possessed to get a bonus attack from the claw prevents them from using it with their normal attacks.

You can have multiple attacks with a single arm/hand. If a warrior had four profile attacks and was wearing a shield, he'd still have four attacks. So all attacks must come from the same arm/hand, since the other hand is occupied. If he was wearing an axe, all his profile attacks would profit from the -1 AS. If he was growing a claw, all profile attacks should get the +1S

That is one way to interpret how it *should* work, but the rules don't support that. RAW that is how weapons affect the profile, but the Great Claw isn't a Weapon - it is a Mutation.

In my group we changed the flavour to fit the rules. We decided that the +1S was a special squeeze attack that could only be done once per round per claw e.g. imagine an experienced Possessed that has 3 profile attacks and 1 arm with 1 Great Claw. The 3 profile attacks represent bashing with the claw, hooves, biting, etc. and then you would get +1 attack when the claw latches on and squeezes for +1 str. If the same Possessed had a profile of 3 attacks and two arms with two claws you would get 3 attacks at basic strength and then 2 attacks at +1 str, one for each claw.

In any case, for the OPs original question I would recommend saving a little more and getting:
Possessed: 90
Great Claw: 50
Spines:70
Tentacle: 70
Scorpion Tail: 80
Total: 360.

The Great-Claw is the best longterm choice for damaging, the Spines are a fantastic defense against dogpiling, the tentacle helps you not get hit in the first place and the Scorpion Tail is the best value for money in adding attacks once you have run out of arms.

That being said, I don't actually play Possessed myself. A friend of mine does though, and what *he* does is run two Possessed with Demon Souls until he can afford to purchase a 700 gold monstrosity that generally has a minimum of 3 tentacles and a claw and so forth.

After re-reading the mutation Great claw I am tending to agree with you guys that only the extra attack is at +1 Strength, much like how only the bonus attack of the whipcrack goes first.

ok this makes sense that the claw doesn't "take away" one of the profile attacks. I guess the confusion came from the fact that the possessed has unarmed attacks. But if you think of the troll he has also 3 attacks and only 2 arms. there is no way to tell (and not important in fact) with which of the arms he makes which attack(s)....

but how is it with the +1 attack if you have multiple claws?

1) does only the FIRST claw grant +1 attack, much like an offhand-"weapon" does

2) or does EACH claw give +1 attack? (e.g. 3 claws --> +3 Attacks)

EDIT: thanks for the suggestions Lord0

Each claw will grant +1 attack

However you may only have as many claws as you have arms so in order to get 3 claws you must purchase an extra arm to allocate a claw to...

Dahag! Good to see you posting again, welcome back.