Some questions (da mob rules and other things)

Hello guys,

After a tough battle today I have some general questions and some more specific questions concerning the orc and goblin warband.]

My first question has more to do with general balancing issues. Now I know that mordheim was written almost 20 years ago, but I have to say that I find the basic stats for orc warriors compared to the likes of the wardogs of the witch hunters unbalanced. I mean the dogs are cheaper but cannot level, but still? WS4 and S4? While an orc only has the advantage of the T4. You could compare this tot the squigs, but then the squigs have the random movement thing and have to stay close to the goblins. What are your views on this?

Second question is concerning the lads got talent rule when applied to goblins. I roled it for on of my goblins henchmen groups. Does the entire group thus get killed of? Or only just 1 goblins? And if so, shouldnt the rest of the group be allowed to re-roll? what are your thoughts on this? I know it is correct flufwise, but the orcs already have the anomosity rule (which hampers them).

Third question is concerning the special skills for the orcs. Compared say to the skavens? The only really usefull worthwile skill in there is the one that gives you a +1 to any save you already have in my opinion. The others just give you causing fear or give you an extra charge range which is nice, but the orcs aleady have a decent charge range (and its only 1 x d3).

My fourth question is another general balancing thing. It has to do with heroes. In my opinion heroes start off way to weak to be concidered heroes. The only difference between the boss and the big uns is a higher S. And ofc the leadership, we are now about 6 battles in the campaign. My boss has a few good skills such as resiliance, step aside and might blow, but my opponents witch hunter warband can still blow my boss and shaman away with there 1 wounds. There is armour ofc, but it is next to useless with nearly everyone having S4. Even in combination with the orc special skill, heavy armour would give you a 4+ save but it would quickly become 5+ again and is not worth the gold in my opinion (we are talking about halving the costs for armour in the campaign).

These are some of my complaings. Are my complaints legit or should I just accept the mordheim rules are outdated (even with the erreta updates)? Or should I give coreheim a try? Or am I just rambling?

Regards,

Rory

Hello Rory,

1) About warhounds,

They are actually very cost efficient compared to everything else in the entire game, but they have some real disadvantages. They're only T3 without any saves and they suffer a lot against Fear. They are the witch hunters' answer to not having as much diverse equipment as the mercenaries do. Shoot them when you can since they're usually the easiest things to take out of action in the entire warband, and you might soon be able to start forcing rout tests.

2) Goblins who got talent,

Since it's only a single henchman out of a group that gets promoted to become a hero I would say that it'll only be a single goblin that gets squashed. I don't think they should get a re-roll, though, since other warbands would still be stuck with the remainder of a group that technically didn't get an advance as well.

3) Special skills,

Special skills are usually a mixed bag, and a general opinion is that the skaven ones are a notch above most others. I think the orcs have a couple of ones that are worthwhile and even if there weren't you still have the original tables where there's always something useful to pick.

4) Heroes,

Mordheim is supposed to be on a much smaller scale than Warhammer where you don't have all-powerful lords strolling about without anyone to oppose them. In the beginning even a vampire can be taken out by a single lucky hit from, say, a giant rat. No one is ever safe in this game. Consider your heroes to be mere "leaders" rather than "heroes" and you'll get something closer to the gritty reality. Compared to the witch hunters your own heroes will always be ahead in pure statistics with their high starting toughness, but even with that there's always a rather large chance that the weaker party will pull something crazy off. That's what tend to happen when there's so few dice rolls involved.

All in all I think there is room for improvement in the rules but that should probably be decided between yourself and your opponents. I've played in a couple of settings with various amount of house rules and so far I think it is more fun the closer you are to the original rules.

1. As someone who plays Witch Hunters, the hounds are good early game but they don't advance in skill and are vulnerable to shooting and getting mobbed if they run off ahead.  They can't climb, so you can just avoid them (terrain permitting).  You also don't want them getting the majority of OOAs, because that'll be denying your heroes experience and Witch Hunter heroes aren't very impressive to begin with.  Your orcs can get spears, swords, light armour, helmets and shields which would all increase their chances against the dogs.  After a couple of advances, the orcs can be a far greater threat.

2.  The one mouthy gobbo dies.  The rest of the group roll for an advance as usual for a lad's got talent result.

3.  The Orc special skills are a bit rubbish.  'Ere we go seems particularly redundant as your heroes can access the Strength skills which contain a better skill (cause fear).  'Ard 'Ead is more useful than you might first think.

4.  The Orc heroes have the potential to become very strong indeed.  In the campaign I'm currently running, the guy playing Orcs & Goblins has the strongest warband by far and his Boss and Shaman are real handfuls.  If your heroes are getting taken out a lot, try a slightly different approach: you have access to bows, crossbows and a screen of henchmen with spears.  You're likely to be tougher than the enemy marksmen, which gives you an advantage in a shootout.  It isn't very orc-y, but it may be worth trying out for a few games and hopefully your boss will survive and gain another wound through advances, then he can go back to bashing heads.

davinewrath wrote:

2.  The one mouthy gobbo dies.  The rest of the group roll for an advance as usual for a lad's got talent result.

Oh hey, that's a good catch. I dunno why but we've always been playing it that the remainder of the group are stuck with an empty advance result. Thanks for enlightening me.

@davinewrath, so the rest of the group can re-roll for another advance? I thought you just rolled for the entire group and the entire group gets the same advance right? Can you elaborate please?

Yes spears are oke, but the crits for swords are by far the best in the game. I have a group of goblins with bows with bs 4. It seems a waste to me to give xbows to orcs, because the orcs are supposed to be the ones doing the chopping am I right? Plus the spear does not allow you to carry another weapon only a shield, which seems a waste of an attack to me?

The problem with this battle and more, is that the other warbands usually have better initiative and get into buildings and start shooting, even with ropes its hard to get at them with the orcs (plus the risk of diving charges).

Rory wrote:

so the rest of the group can re-roll for another advance? I thought you just rolled for the entire group and the entire group gets the same advance right? Can you elaborate please?

Rory, it's actually all right there in the rules. Look at the bottom.

The rulebook wrote:

10-12 The lad’s got talent.

One model in the group
becomes a Hero. If you already have the
maximum number of Heroes, roll again. The
new Hero remains the same Henchman type (eg,
a Ghoul stays as a Ghoul) and starts with the
same experience the Henchman had, with all his
characteristic increases intact. You may choose
two skill lists available to Heroes in your
warband. These are the skill types your new
Hero can choose from when he gains new skills.
He can immediately make one roll on the Heroes
Advance table. The remaining members of the
Henchmen group, if any, roll again for the
advance that they have earned, re-rolling any
results of 10-12.

Just my 2 golds crowns input for Ork Skills

ard ead.
This one isn't too bad, get yourself a helmet and its a 2+ save against being stunned. When you combine this with a high toughness and armour, it can be a greenskins saving grace sometimes. (get that boy some 'ealing erbs and hes back in the game)

Waaagh
not great when compared to leap, not bad when combined with it(and sprint), but seeing how the boss is the only one of your starting heroes with speed its not that often used.

'ere we go
Useless unless you have terror causing creatures.
(we added a house rule that if you have 3 skills that cause fear you get upgraded to terror)

da cunning plan
Awesome!! Re-roll ANY failed rout not just the first like other warbands

well ard
Another good skill, armor pays off.

eadbasher
This one is Awesome too, no really when enemy heroes get bigger you will find there is a huge difference in stunned and knocked down.

rory wrote:

...I have to say that I find the basic stats for orc warriors compared to the likes of the wardogs of the witch hunters unbalanced. I mean the dogs are cheaper but cannot level, but still? WS4 and S4?

Wardogs are admittedly awesome - especially for only 15 gold. They are unquestionably one of the best value for gold meatshields around. As for a comparison between Wardogs and Boyz, Wardogs are good in the short term, Boys in the long term. Boyz with +WS, +S4, +A, +I, clubs/swords/axes, crossbows, Light Armor, and Shields are much more formidable than mere wardogs. Really, you shouldn't be comparing Boyz to wardogs at all, they are a different class. Boyz are more comparable to Zealots, against who they compare quite favourably. The meatshields of the orc warband are the Goblins and Squigs. Compared to a goblin, a wardog is better on the offensive, on the the other hand, you care less when a goblin fulfills his duty (i.e.) dies, so arguably the goblin does his job as a meatshield better . Also, look at the end game of the warbands as a whole - assuming max heroes, which would you rather have? 6 wardogs or 14 Boyz with WS4, BS4, S4, A4, Swords, Spears, and crossbows? Granted, that is expensive, but that doesn't matter - you are not Skaven - *you can use Tarot cards and pendulums to their full effect!* Need crossbows? Find a Fletcher. Need armour? Find an armoury. Hell, once you *really* get your Tarot cards online you can find an Alchemist's Notebook and then the only question is if you give it to your Shaman or your leader (hint: your leader. Hunch and Tactician very good).

rory wrote:

Second question is concerning the lads got talent rule when applied to goblins.

+1 for what has been said. Just the one dies and the rest roll a different advance.

rory wrote:

Third question is concerning the special skills for the orcs. Compared say to the skavens?

The Skaven skills are definitely awesome - it is one of the things that make them a top-tier warband. That being said, the orc skills are not to be sneezed at.
'Ard Ead: A literal life-saver - especially against things that think it is funny to hit you with clubs.
Waaagh!: Admittedly kinda poopy. I have seen it used on a TLGT hero with Speed who took Sprint, Leap, and Waaagh! but even then it is not a skill you take first.
'Ere we go!: Very poopy. You would only take this if you didn't have access to Strength skills e.g. TLGT hero with Shooting.
'Da Cunning Plan: OMFG, why would you not take this? A must for every orc leader.
Well 'ard: Orcs cannot wear heavy armor, so this is the only thing they have to get their armour saves up. That being said, it *does* stack with Toughened Leathers, so this skill and toughened leathers will give you a 4+ save vs daggers, which is what a lot of dual-wielding meatshields have.
'Eadbasher: This one is awesome. Instead of your opponent have a 33% chance to be knocked down they have a *0%* chance to be only knocked down. I really can't stress how powerful that is, particularly against foes like Dwarfs, undead, and anyone with Jump Up. It *really* shines if you are using the better crit table and give them a spear or halberd. Crit 4-5 is *deadly* against multi-wound creatures "Oh, you had 10 wounds did you? Well, now you are stunned, and now you are OOA." Granted, that needs some good rolling, but even the *threat* of it can be used to scare off multi-wound models.

rory wrote:

...another general balancing thing ... In my opinion heroes start off way to weak to be concidered heroes.

Orc are basically humans with +1T, -1I and are balanced as such. The Boss is a little over-priced, but the Big'uns are pretty good (T is more valuable than I) and the Boyz are a bargain just looking at the profile. They are so cheap because they get animosity.

rory wrote:

My boss has a few good skills such as resiliance, step aside and might blow, but my opponents witch hunter warband can still blow my boss and shaman away with there 1 wounds.

In Mordheim melee combat is fickle. With only a few games and having not seen them I can't say if he was out-playing you or just out-lucking you. It could easily just be the latter.

rory wrote:

we are talking about halving the costs for armour in the campaign.

My group did this for a while, but then went back to normal. It is fun for a bit, but it made the game feel less medieval post-apocalypticy. YMMV. That being said, I would strongly recommend making shields and bucklers give +1 AS in melee and make offhand attacks -1 to hit (the new Combat skill Dual Wielder would negate the penalty). We also made Ithilmar count as a kind of Light Armour rather than heavy armour, which means that orcs can wear it.

rory wrote:

These are some of my complaings. Are my complaints legit ... Or am I just rambling?

Regards,

Rory

Perhaps not just rambling, but I think with more experience for you and your warband you will be able to unleash the full power of the green tide.

@Rory--What I want to know is how did your Restless Dead warband turn out?

Quote :

Or should I give coreheim a try?

You do seem to have a lot in common with the coreheim folks. And coreheim would eliminate most of the warbands you have already tried out and found lacking.

Guys, why are you advising me to get spears for the boys? Would'nt it just be a waste of one attack? Even though you get the first attacks.

Two battles previous I dominated the battle because I could get in to close combat with the middenheim and skaven warbands. Its then that I notice the true strenght of the greenskins. Its more the problem of the other warbands that climb in houses and fire away at me. My shaman and boss got one shotted, I am thinking of getting them the range variant of step aside. Or should I go for heavy armour and the orc skill with the +1 on a save?

After the last battle my boss had been downed to ws 3 and my shaman to t3, so thats a big pain. I do seem to get alot of kills in the battles, they just dont result in permanent damage to the other warbands (thats more on the general workings of the game).

I am considering my next move, I have about a 100g to spend. My current set up is as follows. I will only state the changes from the standerd profiles. I am aiming for a solid close combat warband, but also with survivability, hence the resiliant and step aside skills. In my opinion heavy armour is under powered, since most of the warbands have alot of S4 units. Still maybe with the orc skill that brings it to a 4+ save it might be worthwhile?

Heroes:

1 x boss: sword, hammer, skills: step aside, mighty blow (ws 3). He has leveled so I can choose a new skill, which one do you think?

1 x shaman: sword, skills: clubba and zzap + might blow (he is close combat orientated, only with the T3 i am weary of this tactic).

1 x big un: 2handed sword, skills: mighty blow, step aside, strongmen and 2 attacks.

1 x big un: sword, hammer skills: might blow, resilient and step aside.


Henchmen:

Goblin group of 2: short bow and ws 4. On of them died because of lads got talent (I have never gotten a henchmen to upgrade to hero status, so you can imagine my discontent because of this dice roll!). The other two have to re-roll next time for there upgrade.

Troll: needs no explaining.

Orc boys group of 3: armed with axes and hammers, they have S4 because of an upgrade.

Orc boys group of 3: armed with axes and hammers, they have WS4 because of an upgrade.

This is the total warband atm. What do you guys think? Go for a bunch of squigs and some goblins for more meatshields to cover me from missile fire? Or is this giving to much free xp to my enemies. We are now in the stage that the other warbands (middenheim, skaven --> especially powerfull atm, witch hunters and dwarves have ratings in the 210 and 220's). My current rating is around 220 also.

Please excuse my for my grammer and punctuation guys, although I was raised bilingual my English writing is still not as good as my first language.

@ Von kurst, I have finished all the models I needed, but am nog considering them untill a new campaign. I just dont see the merit in an advanced campaign? Even the normal undead seem weak in an campaign thats well under way. Even though I have played them often. I notice that after a while, the undead just miss the boat when it comes to strong henchmen. The dregs are just there for the shooting and the only good henchmen are the ghouls. What do you think? There are options for hired swords though.

I will stop rambling on now!

Regards ,

Rory

@ Lord 0; could you elaborate on what you said about Mordheim close combat being fickle?

Thanks

I think resilient, dodge or pitfighter are good choices it depends on what the other players are playing and how much terrain you use.

I would spend the 100 gold on crossbows, even thou you want to be close combat orientated a little fire power never hurts and it can be used to herd the opposition into ambushes.

its key to remember the magic multiples of 3 when looking at numbers, atm you have 13 members meaning you need to lose 5 warriors before you can rout. which can be expensive for your boyz its much better losing just a goblin with a dagger or two so buy some chaff

Quote :

its key to remember the magic multiples of 3 when looking at numbers, atm you have 13 members meaning you need to lose 5 warriors before you can rout. which can be expensive for your boyz its much better losing just a goblin with a dagger or two so buy some chaff

Um, actually its key to remember the magic number of 4 since you have to lose 25% before taking a rout test. Rory's break number would be 4.

Its also important to remember the special warband rules when giving advice. Rory is currently playing Da Mob. Goblins only count as .5 models for rout purposes, so you have to lose 2 goblins (or squgs) to equal an orc. His warband would have to lose 2 goblins and 3 orcs in order to voluntarily rout. (Which IS 5 models.) Now LUCKY people love this: "I can lose 5 goblins and not be at break point!" UNLUCKY people, of which Rory just might be one judging by his injury rolls so far, should avoid this like the plague. Those goblins are likely to die taking 20 or 25 gold a pop.

@Rory--Here's why you don't have more than 4 heroes. You have 6 orc boys, but they are in two groups of three. BAD PLAN. If you are going to spend money, spend it on orcs and keep them in groups of one each. You will have more chances to roll a hero advance AND any hero advance rolled COUNTS.

DO NOT buy goblins or squigs until you have at least 5 heroes. They are a drain on your finances and contribute nothing to the war effort.

Now if your group is one of those odd groups that do not allow a single henchmen to be a 'group', then DO NOT play orcs in their campaigns unless you really like frustration, or buy your orcs in groups of 2.

Finally, make some ladders to fit the terrain you play on. Ladders are easy to make and can be made from cardboard or wood or plastic. Bring them to your game night and put a ladder in each building that has an upper shooting platform. Ladders are clear terrain and I2 Orcs or I3 Beasts can climb them with no penalty and they can charge up them at double move.

I'm with Von Kurst, get heroes by farming henchmen.

As far as my current dwarf campaign has gone, there are two phases to the game Morheim. In the first phase of a campaign, you don't have six heroes and are trying to fix that. You use all your gold to buy and outfit your good henchmen (boyz), put them in groups of 1, and play conservatively. You'll eventually get tLGT if you make buying fresh henchmen your first priority. Older henchmen are given dangerous jobs or even retired in favor of those that might get promotions on XP 2 or 5. If you get to five heroes you'll be less pressed to farm talent, and can start spending money elsewhere, but you still want to aim for six

Once you get six heroes, the world is your oyster. Send the worthless bums that couldn't get promoted to the front to be expendable, buy fancy gear for your heroes, and have a blast. You'll make big bucks, and won't need to worry about keeping a herd of boyz alive.

For my guys, I call this "peak dwarf". The real good spot to be in is where my buddy found himself with his mercenaries: he lost a champion, but quickly had two marksmen get promoted, giving him the full six heroes but short one champion. Now if any of his heroes dies, he can immediately buy a champion and be back up to six without needing to farm henchmen again. I've thought of dismissing my engineer and buying a crop of fresh clansdwarfs to get myself in a similar position, but it's not quite worth it for me.

We had two players join our campaign late, so we gave them an extra 400 gc to level their odds. They ended up spending a lot of that on goblins and zombies, and they had such large warbands that they couldn't make any money. It was a weird rut to get stuck in. Too many henchmen and not enough heroes is a bad place.

To put things in perspective, my dwarfs started out with four heroes, and it was prehaps game 9 before I got my first promotion. Then my sixth hero came around game 17 or so, after an almost all consuming effort to farm fresh dwarfs. Now I have tons of gold, great heroes, and can expend my henchmen without taking any serious setbacks.

rory wrote:

@ Lord 0; could you elaborate on what you said about Mordheim close combat being fickle?

If you roll badly it will turn against you. As an extreme example, I once charged my leader with 6 attacks in a diving charge against a lone wardog. I missed with all my attacks, the wardog critted and took my leader OOA. Sometimes the dice just go against you.

Because of that, and because leaders cannot be replaced*, I now don't ever get my leader into melee if I can help it.

For fully levelled up Boyz with armour, shields, and swords, spears make a pretty good back-up weapon and they are reasonably easy to come across. Also, now that I think about it, my group has house-ruled that spears only cost 5 gold, so they are less valuable to sell if you pick one up.

For a Hero with Web of Steel, 'Ead Basher and armed with a Spear or Halberd gives you the chance to roll Knocked down on a multi-wound model while they still have all their wounds left. Then you OOA them while they are stunned. Web of steel makes it more likely your crit will be knocked down and 'ead basher converts the KD to Stunned.

Also, +1 to the not bothering with goblins in a competitive warband. In such a warband goblins are, at best, trollfood.

+1 to ladders also, and while you are at it, plank bridges if you don't have any. The original terrain came with a whole bunch of bridges to go from building to building for a reason and it really does make the game more fun.


*At that time. We have since house-ruled various ways to get a leader back - e.g. a new Assassin Adept or Sister Superior is assigned to the team (for cost, of course), the Champion with the highest LD morphs into a captain, a Biggun with the highest sum(St,T,Ws) morphs into the leader, etc.

Oke so you guys would advise me to get 2 orcs with crossbows and put them each in a seperate group? Is there a limit of groups you can have btw?

I am also considering what skill to get for my Orc warboss, seeying he has WS3 know. What would be a good one to compensate? Maybe swordmaster? So he can reroll he attacks?

I have just been reading up on the orc rules. WTH? Orcs cannot buy heavy armour? As if black orcs do not exist in mordheim? That puts away my plan of getting that orc skill which gives a +1 to armour.

Would you guys advise me to get my heroes some light armour and shields? We have agreed to half the prices of armour btw. The shield does give my warriors and heroes only 1 attack, except for the 1 big un who has 2 attacks. Or is it good to have shields in the beginning for a save against missiles? And then switch around when you charge?

Btw guys, on a practical note. Which models do you guys use for orcs with crossbows? The only complete models with these weapons are those special ruglud's lads units? Otherwise you will have to convert?

We don't play WYSIWYG but the orc player in our group did buy Ruglud's Lads to be part of his warband because of the crossbows.

RationalLemming wrote:

We don't play WYSIWYG but the orc player in our group did buy Ruglud's Lads to be part of his warband because of the crossbows.

We've considered that as well, though WYSIWYG isn't a huge part of our game either.

rory wrote:

Btw guys, on a practical note. Which models do you guys use for orcs with crossbows? The only complete models with these weapons are those special ruglud's lads units? Otherwise you will have to convert?

Another suggestion is simply just getting some Crossbows from somewhere and glue them on the back/in the belt of your Heroes.

I have a unit of these old orcs I picked up back in my Warhammer Fantasy days but never got around to painting them up.
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They are kind of weedy looking compared to the rest of the orcs I use for Mordheim and I think I would rather convert a few crossbow wielding orcs instead

rory wrote:

Oke so you guys would advise me to get 2 orcs with crossbows and put them each in a seperate group? Is there a limit of groups you can have btw?

While they are henchmen, I would only give them bows. Crossbows really need Nimble to be used properly and henchmen die a bit too easily to risk giving them a 25 gold weapon.

For orcs the maximum number of henchmen groups you can have is, in practice, 20*. I doubt you will need that many.

rory wrote:

I am also considering what skill to get for my Orc warboss...

I recommend giving him nimble and a crossbow.

rory wrote:

Orcs cannot buy heavy armour? As if black orcs do not exist in mordheim? ... Would you guys advise me to get my heroes some light armour and shields?

There are black orcs in Mordheim, but your warband isn't them. The black orcs are here. They are from the Nemisis Crown expansion. If you can get your group to allow Ithilmar armour to count as light armour then it is worth getting Ithilmar, the armour skill, and Resilient. Giving shields and bucklers +1AS in melee will also help this. My group is quite competative and neither of them made things less fun. The opposite, in fact, as it encouraged the use of shields over the usual dual-wield spam.

Even if you don't get to use any of those rules, Light Armor, Shield, and the skill will give you a 4+ save in melee (3+ vs daggers), which is worth considering once you get 2-3 attacks. If you take Resilient then you still have your full 4+ save vs S4 attacks.

If your light armour is only 5 gold, then sure, get armour and sheilds for your heroes. Get them helmets too.

rory wrote:

Which models do you guys use for orcs with crossbows?

I make a quiver from greenstuff and then stick the head of a crossbow on the top of it. I then use a small amount of blutac to attach it to the orc in question. Saves a lot of modelling because I don't always start all of them with crossbows. I do something similar for bows, shields, and handguns (I eventually give my leader a double-barreled sniper rifle - it is a marvelously orky weapon to my mind).


*1 leader, 20 groups of 1 henchman, and the Halfling Cookbook.

Lord 0 wrote:

If your light armour is only 5 gold, then sure, get armour and sheilds for your heroes. Get them helmets too.

Pretty sure halving 20gc Light Armour comes down to 10gc Light Armour, but who knows, it's getting late here!

Nope, that was me halving it and then halving it again. 15 gold it is. Helmets all around, then armor and shields.

@ Lord O: If I give my boss a crossbow I do away with all the skills I have already given him (step aside and mighty blow). Doesn't seem logical. Could you elaborate on your choice for spears as second, back up, weapons? You would switch to them if you know you will not be able to make a charge this turn? So you are sure if you are charged that you will strike first? Is that the tactic? It seems logical to me to only get this if you have 2 attacks for your henchmen.

How does this work with shields guys? Do you get them for all your heroes? Because even if you are not using them in close combat, they give you a 6+ save from ranged weapons. Is this true? It says so at the rules for spears and halberds.