Starting Dwarf Treasure Hunters

Hello again,

after I got many good tips for my beastmen here, I try to get tips for starting another warband: Dwarf treasure hunters.

Altough I haven't even played a lot with my beastmen, I would really like to have another warband for some variety.


My vision of playing dwarfs are following:

- good ranged attacks (especially with engineer)
- hard to kill
- really, really hard to kill!

I'm pretty sure, that every enemy is going to outnumber dwarfs, but because of the special rule with finding extra wyrdstone it should work.

For skills I was looking forward in using the dwarf special skills. They all are really great in my opinion.


My first question is for an alternative parry rule.
At the moment we play: When someone is allowed to parry, he can force the enemy once per sword or buckler to reroll one attack, which hit. With sword and buckler, he can force the opponent to reroll two attacks, which hit.

But what about now, when using Master of Blades? It has to be an improvement of the upper rule. Or is there any other, better parry rule, which fits Master of blades better?


For further game, I wanted to increase first with one more Thunderer, then alternating with buying clansmen and thunderers. Thinking of buying a halflind scout or tilean marksman later.

I really, really don't want my dwarfs to die. You can see, what I mean on my noble.


But here at last, is my first thought of a list:


Noble, Dwarf Axe, Pistol, shield, gromril armor, helmet (205)

Engineer, Hammer, Crossbow, light Armor, shield (108)

Troll Slayer, two-handed axe (65)

Troll Slayer, dwarf axe, hammer (68)

Thunderer, hammer, crossbow (68)



What do you think? I tried to max my heroes and then afterwards I tried to get another Thunderer in. I hope, it worked?



Thanks in advance!

Best regards, Seikilos

Seikilos wrote:

Hello again

Hi!  

Seikilos wrote:

My vision of playing dwarfs are following:

- good ranged attacks (especially with engineer)
- hard to kill
- really, really hard to kill!

Not to mention:

- Slow annoying movement
- Not a lot of climbing
- Always reaching the objective last

Otherwise, yes, they are insanely hard to kill and perfect for ranged.

Seikilos wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that every enemy is going to outnumber dwarfs, but because of the special rule with finding extra wyrdstone it should work.

Aye, they usually get out on top due to the low loss of henchmen, hard to kill Heroes and that extra Wyrdstone.

Seikilos wrote:

For skills I was looking forward in using the dwarf special skills. They all are really great in my opinion.

Can only agree. One of the best, if not the best.

Seikilos wrote:

My first question is for an alternative parry rule.
At the moment we play: When someone is allowed to parry, he can force the enemy once per sword or buckler to reroll one attack, which hit. With sword and buckler, he can force the opponent to reroll two attacks, which hit.

Wow, that's a powerful parry! I thought ours was powerful (ours is that you can pick what to parry)

This means that if an opponent hits on 4+, he has a 50% chance to hit. With 4 attacks, that's an average of 2 hits pr. round. Against an opponent with a Sword & Buckler, that would mean that those two hits has to be re-rolled again, with 50% chance to hit, meaning that your opponent only hits with 1 out of 4 attacks.

The normal parry rule rarely offers a parry, so I see the reason to change it, but perhaps into something less powerful?

Seikilos wrote:

But what about now, when using Master of Blades? It has to be an improvement of the upper rule. Or is there any other, better parry rule, which fits Master of blades better?

Ours is two flat 5+ parries which can be re-rolled. I still don't know if it's a good solution though. I'm actually considering changing the parry rule back to the original, because pretty much all our models are running around with a Sword or two (we even allow 2 Swords to re-roll like Sword & Buckler).

Seikilos wrote:

For further game, I wanted to increase first with one more Thunderer, then alternating with buying clansmen and thunderers. Thinking of buying a halflind scout or tilean marksman later.

The best Hero you can get imo. is a Clansman. Either with Strength/Special (and a Combat Manual later) or Shooting/Special. Thunderers are better off as henchmen, since you can only have 5 of them and they have access to Handguns/Crossbows. If you get a Clansman Hero you can get Shooting/Special, so he will be able to access Crossbow/Hunting Rifle instead (or whatever you wish to go with). This means that you can increase your ranged power a lot. Don't hesitate taking the Thunderer Hero if you get him though!

Seikilos wrote:

Noble, Dwarf Axe, Pistol, shield, gromril armor, helmet (205)

Engineer, Hammer, Crossbow, light Armor, shield (108)

Troll Slayer, two-handed axe (65)

Troll Slayer, dwarf axe, hammer (68)

Thunderer, hammer, crossbow (68)

This is pretty much how I started making Dwarf lists as well - good place to start! Depending on what you're playing, I'd go a bit differently though. My usual list is more a bit like this:

Noble: Dwarf Axe, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet (190)

Engineer: Gromril Hammer, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet (149)

Troll Slayer: Dwarf Axe & Dwarf Axe (80)

Clansman: Dagger (40)

Stash: 2xDwarf Axe, 11gc

So why do I do this? First of all, yes, this is a bit of a douchebag tactic. You could go even further and start with only 3 models though: Noble, Engineer & Clansman. You'd then put a Gromril extra in the stash along with a Dwarf Axe. However, we'd like to get just a bit started, so this is where we go from. The idea with this is well, perhaps to lose the first game, preferably as underdog. If you can get an extra experience (like in Wyrdstone Hunt), the Slayer should get it. You sacrifice the Clansman and take your leave. Next game you should have enough to buy another Clansman (your first hopefully got to become a Hero)! When you have the gold, you buy a Slayer.

The reason I would change your list is that you have 4 Heroes, but only 5 total, meaning that if you lose, that extra Hero is lost anyway (since you'll lose at least 2 before taking rout tests).

Another list you could go with (if you don't want to play the douche), is this:

Noble: Dwarf Axe, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet (190)

Engineer: Hammer, Shield, Heavy Armour & Helmet (118)

Troll Slayer: Dwarf Axe & Dagger (65)

Troll Slayer: Axe & Dagger (55)

Clansman: Hammer & Dagger (43)

Beardling: Hammer & Dagger (28)

Stash: 1gc

Until you get that BS or Quick Shot I wouldn't bother with any Crossbows. They're pretty awesome melee and if you can't reach your enemy, you have something to sacrifice!

This list is more competetive while still having the chance to get up and leave while having the possibility to win. I'd take care with the Slayers though, they tend to die early, which is why I usually just start with 1 (one less to take care of!)

[quote="Seikilos"]What do you think? I tried to max my heroes and then afterwards I tried to get another Thunderer in. I hope, it worked?

Other than I'd start with 6 warriors (and of course go with my own list ^_^) and not take any Crossbows, it looks fine. Feel free to alter my suggestions as you please as well

Hope this could help a bit - and good luck!

RE: Master of Blades: If you want to keep the house parry rules you have, I think probably the best way to do it would be to make the reroll-to-hit roll be at -1.

+1 for Aipha's recommendation for starting list and why you want clansman heroes more than thunderer heroes.

For what it is worth, in my circle we use the interpretation that allows TLGT heroes to take two skill lists of your choice *and* still have access to the racial list. We find that the games tend to be more fun that way. As a person that mostly plays Marienburgers, I am happy playing against the dwarf, ork, Sisters, etc. warbands that do have the special skill lists.

As a happy side-effect, this interpretation also gives a minor nerf to Skaven because it reduces their Night-runners to being more useless than Youngbloods.

We also have a house-rule that makes handguns and hunting rifles roll two dice for injury (pick the highest) and, with the Engineer's range extension, means sometimes people actually take handguns.

I'm a bit surprised that you bother with gromril armour. Are you going to sell asap for some possible profit? Since armour gets useless pretty quickly (strength, axes, critical hits) I very seldom bother with it.

Hi,

thank your for your tips, especially Aipha!

Concerning the parry rule, I'm going to start an extra thread. There are so many alternative parry rules, that this perhaps would be good to look up for anyone else?


Aipha, your lists look pretty good, but I'm not sure with starting completely without any kind of shooting. When playing my Beastmen, the lack of shooting really sucks.
As long as my enemy has ranged fighters, too, and gets up at a building, shooting my warband down. What to do with dwarfs?

With beastmen at list, i can climb and get up there pretty fast. But especially with the slow dwarfs, I only could hide myself, too, or give up, when not able to shoot him down faster.

I totally understand the meaning of your lists, but I really feel uncomfortable starting without ranged weapons. I'd rather go with one slayer less then starting as a pure meelee-warband.

Concerning my slayers, I read a lot and think, it could be nice having one with a two-handed-weapon as a hard-hitter. Also the models, I was going for, have only two slayers, both having two-handed weapons ;-)

When a clansmen rolls tlgt, i would really give him shooting and special, as it seems to be the best choice having warriors with good meelee and good ranged attacks. A warband with every model being able to wield a 36" crossbow sounds pretty nice ;-)

Quote :

Other than I'd start with 6 Heroes (and of course go with my own list ^_^) and not take any Crossbows, it looks fine

What you mean, starting with six heroes?


Concerning the armor: I agree with you concerning light armor etc. But when having gromril and a shield, the opponent really has to be strong, to negate a 3+ armor save.



Thank you for further tips! I'm going to start another thread concerning parries, as I wrote above!


Best regards,
Seikilos

Lord 0 wrote:

RE: Master of Blades: If you want to keep the house parry rules you have, I think probably the best way to do it would be to make the reroll-to-hit roll be at -1.

I agree, but daym that's harsh!

Lord 0 wrote:

+1 for Aipha's recommendation for starting list and why you want clansman heroes more than thunderer heroes.

And credits to you for leading my onto that path!

Alex wrote:

I'm a bit surprised that you bother with gromril armour. Are you going to sell asap for some possible profit? Since armour gets useless pretty quickly (strength, axes, critical hits) I very seldom bother with it.

While I usually agree that armour gets useless, Gromril is not of that kind. The average Human Hero with an Axe, Mighty Blow and Strength 4 would still only make it a 6+ save (if the Dwarf is using a Shield as well). Against henchmen, you always have a 5+ save at least (unless they crit of course). In our house rules, armour are half price, so we use it a lot actually.

Seikilos wrote:

thank your for your tips, especially Aipha!

Np!

Seikilos wrote:

Concerning the parry rule, I'm going to start an extra thread. There are so many alternative parry rules, that this perhaps would be good to look up for anyone else?

Great idea  

Seikilos wrote:

Aipha, your lists look pretty good, but I'm not sure with starting completely without any kind of shooting. When playing my Beastmen, the lack of shooting really sucks.
As long as my enemy has ranged fighters, too, and gets up at a building, shooting my warband down. What to do with dwarfs?

Hopefully, there's some kind of objective, that will keep your enemy occupied. As I mentioned earlier, your first game is a loss, unless you're really lucky or playing with the 2nd list, which has the possibility to win. You just let your opponent kill your Clansman (preferably with one of his henchmen) and then you pick up your things and leave. Afterwards you can buy Crossbows if you wish. Or you could remove the two Dwarf Axes from the stash and gain 5gc along with a Crossbow, but again - your Engineer will then be your only shooter and he will hit with a single shot on 5+ with short range and 6+ with long, which is why shooting is rarely worth it until you get an increase to help it out. Your Thunderers would hit on the same.

Seikilos wrote:

With beastmen at list, i can climb and get up there pretty fast. But especially with the slow dwarfs, I only could hide myself, too, or give up, when not able to shoot him down faster.

Yup. Dwarves are not really taking home the first few games. But they will catch up eventually! As I said, depends on what you're playing. Dwarves are best for a medium/long campaign.

Seikilos wrote:

I totally understand the meaning of your lists, but I really feel uncomfortable starting without ranged weapons. I'd rather go with one slayer less then starting as a pure meelee-warband.

It is of course totally up to you. My lists are made for winning in the long run. It might be frustrating at first, but as long as your Heroes survive, they will carry you. Remember that Dwarf Heroes (except the Noble) starts with the same profile as your Clansmen/Thunderers, making them much vulnerable in the beginning.

Seikilos wrote:

Concerning my slayers, I read a lot and think, it could be nice having one with a two-handed-weapon as a hard-hitter. Also the models, I was going for, have only two slayers, both having two-handed weapons ;-)

Right, that could be an issue. I believe that the Slayers are just awesome with Dwarf Axes, since it's their only defense before skills (and with Master of Blades). Plus they're the perfect Beastmen/Saurus killers with their S4, Axes and Monster Slayer. Although I'd get Gromril Dwarf Axes for them Saurus! When they get stronger (W/T) you can get them a two-hander without any skills. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying a Clansman with Combat (Combat Manual or Lord 0's rules), Strength & Special is better at that. If it was me, I'd take a Slayer with the two Dwarf Axes and a Clansman to replace the other Slayer. But it's not always that you get to choose

Seikilos wrote:

When a clansmen rolls tlgt, i would really give him shooting and special, as it seems to be the best choice having warriors with good meelee and good ranged attacks. A warband with every model being able to wield a 36" crossbow sounds pretty nice ;-)

Except the Slayers of course :Pbut yes, if you give the Noble Weapons Expert (or dismiss him), you can have that.

Seikilos wrote:

What you mean, starting with six heroes?

Guess I was a bit tired - I meant models/warriors! It has been corrected 

So, here's two more lists.

My thoughts were:

- max. 4 models, so I can sacrifice one and retreat
- no lack of shooting
- giving the noble and engineer high protection

There is one list with an extra thunderer for more shooting and one with a clansmen.
The first list has the problem, that the thunderer could get promoted. And further he would be more expensive to replace because of his crossbow.



List 1:

Noble, Dwarf Axe, Shield, Pistol, gromril armor, helmet (205)
Engineer, Dwarf Axe, crossbow, heavy armor, shield, helmet (155)
Slayer, Dwarf Axe, hammer (68)
Thunderer, hammer, crossbow (68)


List 2:

Noble, Dwarf Axe, Shield, Pistol, gromril armor, helmet (205)
Engineer, Dwarf Axe, crossbow, heavy armor, shield, helmet (155)
Slayer, 2x Dwarf Axe (80)
Clansmen, Dwarf Axe, shield, helmet (70)



In list 2, the noble and engineer at least can make ranged attacks.
To go further I would add in this sequenz: Thunderer, Slayer, Clansmen, Thunderer....

In list 1 I would add: Clansmen, Slayer, Clansmen, Thunderer.



Better?

As a side-note: It should be really fun to play, also for the opponents. I really don't have to play a hardcore-powergaming list!



Edit: Aipha was faster... Still thinking about the things he wrote... When really hitting so bad with ranged weapons, perhaps I really shouldn't buy them for starting...

Seikilos wrote:

My thoughts were:

- max. 4 models, so I can sacrifice one and retreat
- no lack of shooting
- giving the noble and engineer high protection

Alright. I will try to assist from these premises then.

Seikilos wrote:

The first list has the problem, that the thunderer could get promoted. And further he would be more expensive to replace because of his crossbow.

A Thunderer is not bad as a Hero. A Beardling is bad as a Hero ^_^ A Thunderer is just best to go melee with, but you need that Combat Manual in order for him to be effective.

Seikilos wrote:

List 1:

Noble, Dwarf Axe, Shield, Pistol, gromril armor, helmet (205)
Engineer, Dwarf Axe, crossbow, heavy armor, shield, helmet (155)
Slayer, Dwarf Axe, hammer (68)
Thunderer, hammer, crossbow (68)

Looks fine, just remember that your Engineer cannot use a Dwarf Axe (he uses the Thunderer list). You could give the Slayer the Dwarf Axe and the Hammer for the Engineer.

Seikilos wrote:

List 2:

Noble, Dwarf Axe, Shield, Pistol, gromril armor, helmet (205)
Engineer, Dwarf Axe, crossbow, heavy armor, shield, helmet (155)
Slayer, 2x Dwarf Axe (80)
Clansmen, Dwarf Axe, shield, helmet (70)

You've spent 10gc too much. Should probably just replace the Dwarf Axe with a Hammer on the Engineer like before. Then you'd have 2gc left.

Seikilos wrote:

In list 2, the noble and engineer at least can make ranged attacks.
To go further I would add in this sequenz: Thunderer, Slayer, Clansmen, Thunderer....

In list 1 I would add: Clansmen, Slayer, Clansmen, Thunderer.

Better?

If you want to go with 4, yes. I'd take the first list though, if you want to really do some shooting.
Another reason I don't shoot too much with the henchmen is that they killsteal! In melee you can set your opponent up for a Hero kill - you can't do that ranged. And Dwarves are excellent in melee. Even if they're knocked down, they strike last anyway when they get up and are hard to kill.

Seikilos wrote:

As a side-note: It should be really fun to play, also for the opponents. I really don't have to play a hardcore-powergaming list!

I'd really go with 6 models then.

Hi,

thanks again!

I thought a lot about your list-recommendations and now I'm actually thinking of starting with on of your lists, although eventually slightly altered.

I'm really not sure, if to get any beardlings at all, because I'm scared one of them could become a hero. So perhaps I could try playing with 6 models, consisting of the four starting heroes and 2 clansmen.

Really difficult... gonna think again and trying to post another list later...



As I wrote above, I'm going to play my beastmen for the next matches anyways. Just thinking about the future. Perhaps I could start with a dwarf warband which is fully painted... So I have several months to go. Just like making thoughts in advance.... ;-)

Hi,

so I ordered a bunch of stunties and am going to start the warband, as soon as my beastmen are finished painting. One thing after another...

The more I think of it, the more I get doubts, dwarfs are actually playable the kind, I was looking for.

I wanted kind of an opposite to my beastmen:

Slow (not the thing I wished for ;-) ), nearly unkillable and heavy shooting. I want an army of slow moving, undiable shooters, which really hurt the enemy warband.

In my group, you can only take two skill tables for henchmen. Like in the FAQ by mordheimer.com any special skill table counts as one. So if I choose special, I have only one skill table left.

So I thought about getting shooting/special for all of my henchmen being promoted. Someone wrote about a combat manual for getting combat skills. How do I get one of those?

I think my engineer and all promoted henchmen need to get the nimble skill quite soon. If a clansmen gets promoted, he has to get the skill first for wielding crossbows even earlier... and has no defensive skill chosen yet.

Thunderes as henchmen lack of variety, though they never have the chance of moving AND shooting and therefore have to stay behind most of the time.

I bought the models though and therefore am starting the dwarfs no matter what. But I'm not quite sure, if they will be playable as I thougt. I bought a noble, an engineer, two slayers, five clansmen and five thunderers with the thunderers and engineer being equipped with a crossbow and therefore should be played with one.

If you have any further tips, I would be glad!


I think a warband being heavily equipped with bows and therefore being able to move and shoot at all would be more flexible. So why using crossbows anyway? Only +1 Str.?

Dwarfs are my warband and I love playing them. They are slow, in movement and in power in the beginning of a campaign but once they get rolling it's a frightening group. Scenario, terrain, and placement are very important as for all warbands but I think more constricting for our short legs.

Seikilos wrote:

In my group, you can only take two skill tables for henchmen. Like in the FAQ by mordheimer.com any special skill table counts as one. So if I choose special, I have only one skill table left.

So I thought about getting shooting/special for all of my henchmen being promoted. Someone wrote about a combat manual for getting combat skills. How do I get one of those?

This is how it is in the rules unless there is a review I missed. As for thunderers I always choose shooting or special, they can be very powerful ranged. Dwarfs also play well as melee once they get some experience. Early in game I don't fare as well against my normal Middenheim and Orc opponents in melee.

The combat manual may be referring to the training manual from this Exploration chart result?

Mordheim Rulebook wrote:

(5 5 5 5 5 5) Fighting Arena
During better times, Mordheim was famous for
its duellists and pit fighters. You have found
one of the areas used to train these warriors.
The place is filled with training equipment and
practice weapons.
You find a training manual, which you can either
sell for 100 gc or let one of your Heroes read. The
extra knowledge your Hero gleans from reading
the manual entitles him to choose from Combat
skills whenever he gains a new skill, and his WS
may now be increased by an extra point above his
normal racial maximum (for example, a Human
who has the book would now have a maximum
Weapon Skill of 7).

Seikilos wrote:

I think a warband being heavily equipped with bows and therefore being able to move and shoot at all would be more flexible. So why using crossbows anyway? Only +1 Str.?

Dwarf Treasure Hunters are unable to use bows. The extra str, range, and Engineers special rule make crossbows very nice. Just need to set up your firing positions so you don't need to move as much.

Hi everyone! I'm starting a campaign with Dwarf Treasure Hunters this week, so I thought I'd ask some questions here.

From Mordheimer, it looks like dwarves can have bows, and slayers are only S3 to start out. Is this correct?

Secondly, TLGT says you can pick two skill sets that your warband has access to. Does this mean that promoted dwarves can't take academic skills (without the alchemist's notebook)?

Thirdly, if I'm anticipating only playing around 15 games, is having Beardlings promoted such a bad thing? They have one less weapon skill, BS, and Ld, which all (besides maybe BS) seem like no big deal.

Hi,

on mordheimer, the only available range weapon choices are handgun, crossbow and pistols. Where do you find bows?
Slayers have really S3.

For your second question I don't know the answer. But why would you want to take academic, when dwarfs have (imho) way better skillsets, especially when your special skills count as one choice and you want them?

Why would you want to take Beardlings anyway? As far as I understood, you only use them as meat shields and to die for your 25% rout test. When I start playing, I won't use any beardling.

Another thing: We played 5 games so long with four players. With our two new players, we played ~ 15 games at all in a campagn and not even one player rolled tlgt so far....

Thanks, Seik!

You're right about the bows. About the academic skills, I'm doing a bit of roll playing with this warband and will be focusing on the "treasure hunting" aspect, esp. the exploration chart. I'm interested in getting Wyrdstone hunter and Streetwise skills to help in my search for rare items and rerolls on the exploration chart. Hence, I wanted to know if promoted dwarf henchmen could take academic skills.

As for the beardlings, I have four fit into my list now, but could only have two if I went with clansmen. That's half as many henchmen, and half as many chances to roll TLGT, which should come up 1/6th the time a henchman levels. One of my main objectives will be getting and keeping six heroes, preferably with Resource Hunter for the exploration dice modification.

About that last point, do hired swords or DP give exploration dice rolls?

As the rules are written Dwarfs have no access to Academic skills, except through the Alchemists notebook. (If you wait long enough Lord 0 will stop by to explain that this is not the case. I am mystified by his assertion, but that's how his group plays. So if you wish to follow your path, you can take the proposal to your group as a house rule.)

Roleplaying or not, the Dwarfs have enough access to income (incomparable miners, resource hunter) without adding skill sets and there are several pieces of equipment that are similar to wyrdstone hunter. Also other results on the Exploration Chart can grant you Academic skills or their equivalent making such skills readily available, especially to Dwarfs who can manipulate the Exploration phase better than most.

As for hired swords and DPs, several Hired Swords do allow some impact on the Exploration phase, although most are 'unofficial'. Which HS and/or DPs does your group allow?

Off the top of my head only the Elf Ranger and Kislevite Ranger come to mind as official HS who can impact the Exploration phase, although there are some 'unofficial' Academic skills that might increase the list.

We're just starting the campaign on Saturday, and we'll probably use the Hs/DP from the basic book. There's really nothing much there, so I'll probably be home brewing my own advantages, ie, TLGT and Resource Hunter. And of course tons of Mordheim maps.

(Can I link to outside forums here? I have a WIP thread over at Bugman's Brewery that details our work on the two tables we'll be playing our campaign on.)

Once your Dwarf Treasure Hunters get rolling the wyrdstone will pile up. Resource Hunter is a great skill and the extra stone every game is nice.

While the base rules read that Elf Ranger can be included in a warband that contains dwarves with an increased upkeep, I believe this most likely means something like a Dwarf Slayer HS. The Dwarf Treasure Hunter warband rules state they hold a grudge and will never include an elf character.

We don't need no stinking elfs!

How often do the dwarf players here see five- or six-of-a-kind turn up?

I have had 5-of-a-kind twice in the current campaign. No 6 yet. I have 2 quarreler heroes for the max 6 dice , 7 with a win.