Updating / finetuning Mordheim (2)

Hi, As you can read in my other thread I have some issues with the gameplay of Mordheim which I would like to finetune.

In this thread I shall adress Close Combat and the matter of who can fight who.
The current rules state that models in base contact can fight each other. This is pretty clear and there can be no discussion about this.
But then we add in the rule that one cannot attack Knocked Down/stunned models if you are also engaged with another enemy model that's still standing. This can lead to awkward situations where a knocked down model is automatically taken out af action while there's a friendly model touching the knocked down model but not touching the enemy model. The rules being the rules that is how it should be played.

example:
......[X]          A and B are friendly models. B is in base to base with X and is knocked down
[A][B]

another example: an warrior charges an enemy model and ends his charge in base to base contact with that model. there is however another enemy model that is now less than one centimeter away from that warrior. this last model is not in base to base and therefor not engaged in combat.

a third example: three warriors from one warband are fighting three warrior from another warband. They are aligned as follow:
 ....[a][b][c]
...[x][y][z]

A is in base to base with X and Y,
B is in base to base with Y and Z,
C is in base to base with Z

warrior B strikes before warrior C and slays warrior Z. Warrior C is no longer in base to base wih any enemy and is disengaged from battle even though his friend who's standing next to him might be in dire need of some support.


If you have no problems with these situations then you will not like what I'm about to propose. Again the rules are pretty clear on this and this is how it should be played RAW. However, I don't like how these situation happen and I think this could do with an alternative approach. I would like to see what the community thinks about this and how you would adress these situations.

I have thought out a few options to clarify these situations.

A) introduce the 1" rule: A model can never move within 1" of an enemy model without declaring a charge. If a charge on one enemy model would move him within 1" of another enemy model he must end his charge so that he comes into base to base with both. If this is not possible the charge is failed. (this might prove problematic if three or more models are within 1")

B) A model can never move within 1" of an enemy model without declaring a charge. If a charge on one enemy model would move him within 1" of another enemy model or models he must end his charge so that he is in base to base contact with as many enemys as possible (charging players choice which one).

C) A model can never move within 1" of an enemy model without declaring a charge. Enemy models that are within 1" of each other are considerd to be engaged in hand to hand combat (even if not in base to base contact) (optional extra: If possible move any models that are not allready in base to base with an enemy in base contact with the new enemy)

D) Change the ruling for attacking stunned and knocked down models. add: furthermore a warrior cannot attack a model that's stunned/knocked down if there's a standing model from the same warband in base to base with the stunned/knocked down model as the latter will try to protect his companion. Instead both standing models are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.



Each of these options have a different impact on the game and adress different situations. Option A is simple but can create other complications which we would like to avoid. Option B is bit more forgiving but does not adress examples two and three. Option C adresses all three examples listed above but might create other problems. There should propably be limitations included that is not considered to be engaged with an enemy if there's an obstacle (of more than 1" height) or a standing friendly model in between both models. Option D does not adress examples one and two. D can be used in conjunction with C to cover all options. Option D can add a new dynamic because you could position other models behind your front line as a back up or a sort of second rank.

So again: If you have an opinion on this matter (and I know you do!) please share it! I would like to know what the community thinks of this and possibly device a fair and acceptable house rule.

cheers!

Sorry for not answering your questions, but why are there two threads? And why do they share the exact same title? It gets me confused.  

Grimscull wrote:

Sorry for not answering your questions, but why are there two threads? And why do they share the exact same title? It gets me confused.  

because they adress different topics.
The descriptions under the title says what it's about.



also it's not to late to share your views

So nobody got an opinion on this?
Nobody got any experience with awkward situations in combats including multiple models?

I've been thinking it over some more and I think that at least option D would be a nice addition to the rules, without changing a lot.

Captain Bernhardt wrote:

D) Change the ruling for attacking stunned and knocked down models. add: furthermore a warrior cannot attack a model that's stunned/knocked down if there's a standing model from the same warband in base to base with the stunned/knocked down model as the latter will try to protect his companion. Instead both standing models are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.

this may be limited to unengaged friendly models in base to base since others would be to busy fending for their own life to protect their friends

Hey Bernhardt, I love you avatar BTW, that game (Dark Omen) is still one of my favourite games.

Back on the topic: I didn't really encounter the problems you see with the CC part of Mordheim. Yes it is very important to place your models at the right distance to make the most out of charging.
But no, I never felt the system unjust. Sure CC is brutal, certainly if you are Knocked Down or Stunned but this goes both ways and that is why you set up back-up to return the charge.
So on the charge you need to charge with at least two models an enemy to be able to gain benefit form KD's or Stuns, nothing overpowered there.

It does benefit warbands with more models for sure but it only seems realistic and thus fair to me.

BTW you change D seems a little unfair for the charger. The defender can now place models just behind his own cannon fodder and still be in melee, without really being charged. Although it sounds logical it opens a kind of loophole imho.

My suggestion would be to introduce the 'control zone' rule, as found in the last version of LotR strategy battle game. In short, it means the following:
- A model may not move within 1'' of an enemy model, except if it is charging that model.
- If a charging is moved within the control zone of the charged model, it may from that point onwards until the charge is completed override the control zones of enemy models (two models next to each other would else be unreachable)
- Models already engaged in close combat do not have a control zone, and thus may be moved and charged past.
As this is Mordheim, however, the following rule should apply as well:
- A model may move within 1" of an enemy model if this is either by involuntary movement or if the two models are on different 'levels' or could not be brought into combat in some other way (i.e. an enemy model standing a floor higher in a building or on the other side of a wall.)

Finally, to answer your question, I'd say the fairest solution is to introduce a general rule to the game:
- If two friendly models in close combat are in base contact at the end of the player's movement phase, he may decide to let them perform a 'switch'. The switching model must roll his Initiative or lower. If he passes, the two models instantly switch places. The switching model may not be knocked down or stunned, the other model may.

We've always played it that if there's another enemy model standing next to a guy whom you have knocked down or stunned, then you have to fight the one who is still standing (we just move them into base contact, with no charging bonus for either side). That seemed to be in the spirit of the rules.

I agree, there are some problems with close combat and charging into it. This is how we address the problem:

A model cannot charge past an enemy engaged in close combat if that enemy comes within 1" of the charger. Exception: If the enemy is knocked down or stunned.
Why: Because the swing of swords and axes would reach the charger, who'd have to engage in close combat.

In general we don't allow models to charge past enemies within 1", but that's where we usually apply the interception rule anyway.

Concerning friendly models in base contact with a stunned/knocked down friend; if the model is in base contact with a friend, there are two possibilities afaik:

1. He's engaged with another enemy and is busy defending his friend from that side.
2. He killed all his enemies, but the enemy threatening his friend is too far away, so the strike will hit before he can come to the rescue.

Both options imply that he cannot save his friend, so I don't see a need for changing anything there.