Let me know what you guys think about this modified Strigoi

This is essentially a mix of Brahm's "Survivors of Strigos" list and the basic Undead list based on what people thought might be potentially unfair in the alternate list. The henchmen list is pretty much the same as the basic Undead and the major changes are the Dregs and Vampire. Getting stronger Dregs, but a weaker vampire. What do you guys think?

Do you guys think the original Strigoi list is more fair? If you haven't seen it (it's a great list), check it out here:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B18J5DU-6cP_bmlNaFFISnpJMWc/edit

Thanks for your opinions and sorry for so many posts about trying to iron out a fair, fun, and fluffy Strigoi list.

Choice of Warriors
A Survivors of Strigos Warband must include a minimum of 3 models. You have 500 gold crowns which you can use to recruit your initial warband. The maximum number of warriors in the warband may never exceed 15.

Heroes
• Strigoi Vampire: Each Strigany Warband must have one Strigoi Vampire.
• Necromancer: Same spells as rules as the Necromancer from basic Undead list
• Domnu: Your Warband may include up to three Domnu.

Henchmen
• Ghouls: Any number of models may be Ghouls.
• Zombies: Same rules as basic Undead list
• Dire Wolves: Same rules as basic Undead list

Starting Experience
• Strigoi Vampires start with 20 experience
• A Necromancer starts with 12 experience
• Domnu start with 4 experience.
• Henchmen start with 0 experience.

Special Skills
The following skill list may be used by the Strigoi Vampire instead of the standard lists.

• Iron Sinews: After death the Vampire's muscles grow far greater than they ever could have in his mortal life. The Strigoi becomes a beast of pure muscular power. Add +1S to the Vampires profile.

• Great Thirster: Such is the appetite of this beast that he must feed almost constantly. Once the taste of blood has touched his lips, there is little that can stop the Vampire from
drinking again. Once the Vampire takes a model OOA, treat him as Frenzied. This effect remains until he is Knocked down, Stunned, or taken Out of Action.

• Curse of the Revenant: So strong is the desire for some to continue living that they defy death. Once a Vampire has taken the Great Thirster special skill, he may choose the Curse of the Revenant. This skill allows the Vampire to regenerate lost wounds on a D6 roll of 5+. Only one wound may be recovered in this fashion per turn.

• Dark Arts: The Strigoi has retained some of it's former magical aptitude. He may choose Arcane Lore as an advance, and immediately roll for a spell on the Dark Arts table below. Subsequent spells may be chosen instead of skills.

Special Skills
The following skill list may be used by Strigany Heroes instead of the standard lists. Strigoi Vampires may not use this list.

• Light Fingers: Gypsies are apt to "find" things that others have "lost". Should a Hero with this skill take an enemy model Out of Action, they will "find" an extra piece of Wyrdstone. Only one piece of treasure may be found in this manner per game.

• Practiced Arm: Such is the skill with which the Gypsy can launch throwing knives that he can throw two of them per turn. These missiles must be at the same target and gain +1 to their injury rolls to represent the skill with which they were aimed.

HEROES EQUIPMENT LISTS
Hand to Hand Combat Weapons
Dagger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1st free/2 gc
Mace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 gc
Axe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Sword. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Spear . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Halberd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc
Chest Talon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc*
Double-handed weapon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Missile Weapons
Throwing Knives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 gc
Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc
Short Bow . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Armor:
Light Armor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 gc
Heavy Armor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .50 gc
Shield . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 gc
Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 gc

HEROES

1 Strigoi Vampire
115 gold crowns to hire
Insanely jealous of the other blood-lines, a Strigoi Vampire seeks nothing but to sow death and sorrow. Massive brutes, these Hunters of the Night fear nothing, and look to destroy the von Carstein hold over Sylvania as retribution for the persecution they have endured.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 4 4 4 4 2 6 2 8

Weapons/Armor: A Strigoi Vampire may not wield any weapons, as it relies upon brute strength, tooth and claw. They do not suffer from any penalties for fighting unarmed.
Special Rules:
Leader: Any models in the warband within 6" of the Strigoi Vampire may use his Leadership instead of their own.
Kindred Hatred: A Strigoi Vampire Hates vampires of other blood-lines.
Cause Fear: Vampires are terrifying Undead creatures and therefore cause Fear.
Immune to Psychology: Vampires are not affected by psychology (such as fear) and never leave combat.
Immune to Poison: Vampires are not affected by any poison.
No Pain: Vampires treat a Stunned result on the Injury chart as Knocked Down.

0-1 Necromancer
Same as basic Undead warband

0-3 Domnu
30 gold crowns to hire
Children of darkness, the Domnu serve the Strigoi Vampires with absolute loyalty. Guarding him during the day, and bringing sacrifices by night, these damned men live for the death wrought by their master.

Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8

Weapons/Armor: A Domnu may be armed with weapons and armor chosen from the Strigany Equipment list.
Special Rules:
Child of Darkness: Borne of the night, Domnu are steadfast and loyal servants of the Strigoi. They are immune to the Spooky special rule for Sylvania.
Gypsy Ward: Possessing an innate resistance to magic, the Domnu has a special save of 5+ versus magical attacks.

Henchmen list is the same as basic Undead.

Why make the Strigoi weaker? They are muscled beasts, and you should disallow them from wearing armour.

The domnu is the leader of a Strigany caravan, so there should be only one

To be honest I don't really feel this list. There isn't enough to separate them from vanilla undead.

I did some simple mods to Brahms list for my Sylvania campaign. If you want I can email you a copy, it isn't perfect and I abandoned it when I received Werekins list.

Sure I'd love that, as well as any other lists you might have. Hard to try to get a flavorful list and making it not OP. I usually run a list that's underpowered rather than over if I'm going to do a customized list. The vampire itself is a lil weaker in the beginning but I think it balances out if he gets all his skills. Maybe it would have been better if he could purchase his skills like equipment so it's more predictable rather than depending on die rolls, but I guess they'd have to be appropriately priced it'll impact the rest of the warband

I remember reading "Ancient Blood" but it has been so long. Wasn't there a female spell caster and some girl who was like her apprentice?

I prefer the other list in the Henchmen category, as I think only gypsy's and ghouls should be in a Strigoi list

Perhaps instead of giant bats a varghulf would be kind of cool, but maybe that doesn't fit with the theme.

Also, I would agree with Alex above that both lists have the (3) Domnu rule. I would rather see (1) Domnu and some apprentices or something.

I also don't care for the +1S being a skill, unless it relates to a particular circumstance.

I admit.. I did turn the list not that different from the basic Undead list by eliminating things that people thought were potentially unfair in the Strigoi list. I like the living Strigany in the henchmen section... but that in itself is hard to balance too mainly because if you give em too low of stats.. then it wouldn't make any sense for them since they're not the run of the mill Dregs. They're loyal followers that aren't super miserable, probably more cunning than the average person, and survivalists. Thats always the impression I got from the Strigany that mask themselves as performing gypsies when they're really carting around their dark masters.

Chances are, I might just end up going with the generic Undead list.. but it just doesn't seem right to have a vampire that doesn't have some type of generation to represent a Strigoi. The weapons/armor I can easily use my imagination and just have them represent his physical progression.

I am not actually familiar with the Strigoii list. Was their specfic complaints about what was unfair?

Sgt. Mulcayhee wrote:

I am not actually familiar with the Strigoii list. Was their specfic complaints about what was unfair?

The link I have in my original post should lead to it.

The topics of contentions are:
• Strigany henchmen possibly too good in a list with a vampire and other live combatants that are decent (standard human merc stats) - this one is probably the weakest complaint since it seems like its mostly balanced by the fact that the vampire starts off weaker than your average one due to lack of weapons and armor and other lists having powerful combos too.

• The spells in the list.. specifically the 6th spell. It can be devastating to multi-wound models. - on the flipside, its a very situational spell.

• Fell Bat is potentially a game breaker being a multi-wound flier - honestly, no qualms with taking this out of the list (not like I've found cool Fell Bat models anyways).

Alternatively.. I suppose I can keep the Strigany henchmen as it seems this is part of what makes this list more unique. Then possibly get rid of Fell Bats for Dire Wolves or Zombies and have zombies only count as half when calculating max warband size and bring the max back down to 12 (as opposed to 15). With the spellcaster I can either just use standard Necromancer or change the last spell in Hex/Curses.

I don't think the henchmen are to over the top. I would argue though that in the hero list their should only be the one domnu and then some low level heros (youngbloods) WS 2 BS 2. The Dark Arts magic is very powerful, Winged Flight is far more powerful than any of the other spells in Mordheim and I would almost argue is broken based upon the huge advantage of an 18" charge.

Fell Bats aren't too big of an issue for me, with S3 T3, but the ability to charge without line of sight, or climbs, etc is pretty big.

Charms and Hexes
I don't understand the first spell (Can this only be used for D3 roles, how often does that happen?)
Second spell is far too powerful for Mordheim. I could see (1) successful dice roll, but all...
(I rethought this and (1) roll is too few, but all roles from that point on, may be excessive)
Third Spell is far too powerful, end after 1 turn would be ok
Fourth spell should be for one turn
Fifth spell one turn
Sixth spell far to powerful.

So yeah. I can see were people would think the list is unfair.

*Edit I also did find this thread: https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t7018-anyone-use-this-strigoi-list

Yea, that previous post was when I was first looking for Strigoi lists and based on that thread, I made some modifications.

Personally, I was never a fan of "young" whatevers in the hero list when there are henchmen that are stronger. I never understood this in some Mordheim lists. It makes more sense for the young guys to be henchmen rather than heroes unless there is a specific reason for it (like he's a young noble in training and the warband has to help aid his progression).

But yea.. seems unanimous that the Charms/Hexes list is either broken or just strange. Thats probably the one thing I'll have to change for sure.

gorenut wrote:

Personally, I was never a fan of "young" whatevers in the hero list when there are henchmen that are stronger. I never understood this in some Mordheim lists. It makes more sense for the young guys to be henchmen rather than heroes unless there is a specific reason for it (like he's a young noble in training and the warband has to help aid his progression).

I think generally that is the way with most of the warbands, even Sisters of Sigmar have their novices as henchmen. The exception being the youngblood for mercenaries. I've always thought of the youngblood as a heroic young adventurer, who has great potential. The henchman is more like a competent worker, who can do a job, but will never really excel. He doesn't want to go off and search for wyrdstone either, he just wants his 10gc and to keep food in his stomach.

Maybe caravan drivers then as the extra hero's with either WS or BS set at 2 and the alternate skill at 3? Or how about play more on their entertainer side (acrobats, jugglers, poets, etc) by converting the other two domnu positions into some sort of "tinker" or something?

Yea.. I think it made the least sense in one of the Black Orc lists. Orcs would never let some weedy youth be a hero.

As far as my Strigany theme, I'm going more for the grimmer side where these guys aren't spending much time outside of carting around their dark master and really believing in rebuilding their former glory. These are guys that either have served for the court of Strigos or their family line has. SO I'm going more for the traveling hardened warriors who have pretty much be shunned and hunted by other humans (very much like the Strigoi being hunted by their own kind) vs just the gypsy theme. They feel a deeper connection with their master because of similar circumstances.

I think your 3 heroes should get a little flavor in here as well.
Even if they are outcast they should have a little something to liven them up some.
Maybe have a wagon in the list and one of those heroes is the Wagon Master... as these guys are always on the move avoiding other Vampires and other humans wanting to wipe them out then it makes sense that they would need a wagon and that wagon would need a driver and one would not trust just a henchmen with such a job!
You could give him lower stats and a special rule or two to start or better yet a special skill chart for him (a few Wagon Master Only skills; a good source for this would be the BtB supplament for the wagon master hired sword).

your two remaining heroes I would drop 1 (or make him a young blood type) and make one more of the champion of the day kind of hero. Better then the rest but nothing great. More in line with the Champion style heroes. In additon give him some quark as well or a few skills on the special skill list that makes him more adept and your survival. Like the Averlanders Trap rule as a skill option. You could give him accsess to shooting skills even... Combat, Shooting, Special for example... to prevent becoming a shooty warband you make a rule on the ghouls (or any other exp gaining henchmen) that they can't gain shooting if they gain LGT.

Last hero I don't thik you need and may add too much but if you wanted to have the 5th hero then a youngh blood style. You could justify the "young blood" by having him be much like the Merchent Caravans "Aprentice" where he is some in training to be type for the Vampire lord who wants to expand his blood line. Again I don't think this one is needed.

Henchmen:
I would dump Ghouls personally but I always thought that they were lame. Really you would think the promise of gaining the favor of a Vampire and maybe the chance of imortality would apeal to people and they would willingly follow a Vampire.
Thus I would in this warband follow your statement that this is a family protecting the Vampire and moving to avoid conflict. Thus your only exp gaining henchmen are a basic Warrior type henchmen who again can not gain shooting skills if they get LGT.
They would be nothing special as just Warriors but maybe with a unique weapon or two to fit the warband fluff. Not the type you make special rules for but rather Throwing Knifes and some other Gypsy style weapon.

I like those ideas you proposed. I'll definitely look at your suggested lists for inspiration.

As far as ghouls.. I always saw them in the Strigany warband as possibly friends/family members of the Strigany that have fallen to really... REALLY bad times. Possibly receiving some kind of ailment and the rest of the band is keeping the same fierce loyalty with their twisted kindred as they've had with their vampiric masters. I see these guys going through way tougher times than your average warrior.

But why then would they be the guys brought to battle and why would they not be armed?
You could still have the Ghouls as listed in that way but add another henchmen that are the more "normal" family members.
But then you have 2 henchmen groups that gain exp but that could be balanced by removing the Dire Wolves from the warband.

Ghouls are technically armed with whatever they find.. even if its just their claws. Also, with such a desperate band of resourceful people, they probably would use all hands available. It's not like ghouls are weaklings that can't fight.. if anything, they've gotten tougher, but just more feral/insane. This is a weird, cursed land.. its like folk lore where villages hide their members who have gotten inflicted with lycanthropy, but aren't above using their strengths to fend off unwanted intruders.

I suppose the Survivors of Strigos does represent regular humans and afflicted members in the same warband quite well having both types of henchmen.

So something like;
Hero's:
1 Strigoi Vampire
0-1 Domnu (Champion statline with Better WS or BS)
0-1 Mystic (Magic User) (Low stat line)
0-1 Wagon Master (Low stat line with better WS than BS)
possible 5th Hero is a Strongman or Enforcer (Champion Stat line)

Henchmen
0+ Ghouls
0+ Strigany
No third henchmen group (or) Wolves, Bats, Bat Swarm something that gains no XP

That is effectivly what I'm saying.
The Mystic I didn't say before as I didn't know how dropping the the Necromancer would be taken for a Vampire list.
Also wasn't sure if a 5th hero would work in this list as it has 1 supper strong hero (Vampire) and 1 good hero (Domnu).

As to henchmen I think as it is undead the Zombies or some other undead henchmen is needed as the bulk of the warband (or at least the cheap option).
Ghouls and Strigany would be more expencive like Ghouls are in Undead and Strigany would be warrior stats but at like 45GC.
I also like the gypsy idea here for the Strigany for conversions

So perhaps:
Hero's:
1 Strigoi Vampire
0-1 Domnu (Champion statline with Better WS or BS)
0-1 Necromancer (easiest route)
0-1 Wagon Master (Low stat line with better WS than BS)
possible 5th Hero is a Strongman or Enforcer (Champion Stat line)

Henchmen
0+ Ghouls
0+ Strigany
0+ Zombies

The kicker is.. I think making the warband max size being 12 is a must to balance out if we're gonna have a vampire and Strigany running about. With this in mind, maybe make zombies only count as half towards max warband size?

The idea of the Stigany being like 45 gc was meant to make them rare but you could also cap them at like 0-5, Ghouls at 0-3 (or reverse the requirement) and still do Zombies at 0+ with a total warband size of 15.
This means heroes - 4
exp gaining henchmen - 8
12 total exp gaining models so you have room for 3 zombies with in the warband.
You can then in your special skills give to both the Necro and/or Vampire a skill that makes it so they can support 2 Zombies above the warband max. That makes 7 (6 with a 5th hero) zombies total for your warband max size is now 19.

This still effectivly is 12 max (13 if you take have a 5th hero) if you don't want zombies but it allso allows you to get a ton of them with out having to let them go as you hire the exp gaining henchmen to fill the void.

From a fluff perspective I don't feel like zombies fit.

I think either just go with the 2 henchmen groups and even possibly only have 4 hero's, or add the 3rd henchmen group to be along the lines of Skaven Rats, but just call them Bats. After all bats are rats with wings. Same stat line, but with a higher move, maybe 8 but lower S or T?

I agree that the max 12 warband goes a long way toward balance.

Bats fit better then Zombies... I just wasn't sure if again like the Necromancer removal if that would fit the fluff over all of an undead warband.
with that 12 would fit better as well over all.

The last major thing to add is the wagon and how effective it would be on the table. A Wagon Master is useless with out a Wagon of some kind.
Should the Wagon be taken into the games or left out (and the Wagon Master has a rule if he survives)?
I much rather see the wagon on the battle field. But as it can be high risk it needs also a good counter bonus.

I don't see zombies as too far off from Strigany warbands. There's always folklore of gypsy type witches casting curses to make you weaker and turning both live and dead people as puppets.

Necromancers are already outcasts that turn out of desperation. Wouldn't be too far off to have Strigany doing the same.

Quick and dirty, but I think this hits on most of the stuff we discussed:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxhdmVyaGVpbXRvd253YXRjaHxneDpkZDljODY5YWYzY2ZiMDM

Magic is a mix of lesser and necromacy.

Pervavita wrote:

The last major thing to add is the wagon and how effective it would be on the table. A Wagon Master is useless with out a Wagon of some kind.
Should the Wagon be taken into the games or left out (and the Wagon Master has a rule if he survives)?
I much rather see the wagon on the battle field. But as it can be high risk it needs also a good counter bonus.

I agree, there is a rule in there, I don't know how it should work, maybe a piece of scenery (the wagon) that can be placed by the Strigany that provides a benefit within range? I don't think it should require the optional mounted rules for it to be effective. Or a benefit during the after battle sequence?

If you don't have a Necromancer then a gypsy wizard of some kind that is unique is good.
I was thinking magic along the lines of tricks.

Illusion: Range 10" (or some such), a model apears and looks for all intent like a warband member and will be treated as such until some contact is made with it. It will last untill the start of your next turn.
*Wording is off I know but the idea is that your enemy shoots at it (as it's the closest model) and will continue to shoot at it untill an arrow passes threw it and at that time it would be disproven. The same would be for charges by the enemy.

Cantrip: 12" a model is serounded by lights and flashes causing them to lose focus and suffers a -1 to hit.
*in effect shooting and striking would both have a -1 to hit.

Steal "Lure of Chaos"

Steal "Re-Animation" but alter it to be not just Zombies but any model taken OOA and this includes enemy models. Obviously difficulty would have to be 10ish.


As to the wagon; I was thinking of using CoC and Merchents as the template for this.
In both cases the wagon enters the battle field and can be used.
Use the BTB sup for a lot of the wagon rules.
-Now what I was thinking as one idea for the use of the Wagon would be that it allows you to re-roll the Vampires serious injury chart results taking the secound choice. The reason for this is the Wagon is there for the Vampire and this would work for a game mechanic.
-Also the Wagon can be used as a mobile battle wagon.
-You could even make the wagon kind of a Standard of Nagarythe making a secound rallying point. Maybe 6" a +1 LD to all models
-Maybe the wagon is a kind of lucky charm allowing one model with in 6" to re-roll one dice each turn.

All the above I think fit fluff wise and would make the wagon highly usefull and put it at risk in the latter two as you are going to want to keep it with the warband meaning the large target is also a prime target for the enemy. They will want to take it out and as it has to be 6" from the battle and makes it hard to protect too.
I thik the lucky charm effect could not be there but the other 3 (post game for Vampire, battle wagon, and Standard) for a cost of around 200gc. little higher then the Merchent wagon but also has a lot of use for the warband.

I had been thinking off a post game serious injury reroll for the vampire too. I don't think that would be overpowered and helps the fact that the warband depends on the vampire for winning but the vampire ids expensive to replace and could greatly hinder the warband changes if ever last.