Fire Rules for Boats

Hi all

Not sure if this is a newbie question or not but I can't find any rules that relate directly to our scenario. My warband has recently acquired a Riverboat, but I can not find the rules for setting it on fire.

My GM advises that a fire arrow will set the boat on fire on a roll of 3+ if it is hit. He is using the rules for setting a building on fire. However I feel this must be wrong as the boat sits on water. Surely any crew should have the chance to put the fire out?

I have also been advised that at the start of my next turn I need to make a roll for the fire, on a result of 2-5 the fire spreads. It seems way too easy for a boat to be set alight. Why give it 8 toughness and 4 wounds when 1 Fire Arrow will do the job?

Any answers/ pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Timetwister wrote:

Hi all

Not sure if this is a newbie question or not but I can't find any rules that relate directly to our scenario. My warband has recently acquired a Riverboat, but I can not find the rules for setting it on fire.

My GM advises that a fire arrow will set the boat on fire on a roll of 3+ if it is hit. He is using the rules for setting a building on fire. However I feel this must be wrong as the boat sits on water. Surely any crew should have the chance to put the fire out?

I have also been advised that at the start of my next turn I need to make a roll for the fire, on a result of 2-5 the fire spreads. It seems way too easy for a boat to be set alight. Why give it 8 toughness and 4 wounds when 1 Fire Arrow will do the job?

Any answers/ pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Hey, welcome to the forums!

I can't say I've personally encountered your problem (never really used boats etc before). If I was in your situation I would probably not use the rules for setting a building on fire in terms of a boat. Buildings are often made of tinder and full of beds, wardrobes, children and other flammable items while also being so large that if somebody (for example) tossed a flaming torch on the roof, you have very little chance of being able to put out the fire in the middle of a battle.

I would probably encourage using the standard fire rules from the mordheim rules to represent the fire. So for example once hit with a flaming weapon, a fire will start on a 4+ and will cause a strength 4 hit every turn that it is on fire, then friendly members can move into contact and attempt to put out the fire and on a foll of a 4+ in the recovery phase etc. So against the T8 W4 boat it is going to take some lucky (or un-lucky depending on your viewpoint) rolling to destroy it, which is how it should be imo ^^

You could possibly house rule that since the boats are larger than an average character, they could have multiple fires started on them. So the enemy warband could pelt it with lots of fire arrows to start numerous fires that will have a greater chance of destroying it and encourage the owning players to "fight the fires" per say (just keep a note or dice showing how many fires are currently burning on the boat). That feels more realistic imo!

Hope this helps!

Hey

Thanks for the response. This makes alot more sense to me, and it gives me a fighting chance to deal with any fires. I will put this to my GM to see what he thinks. He is notoriously stubborn though.

Thanks again

Welcome to the forum!

Fire in Mordheim is something that I have researched extensively in Mordheim. This is because fire is ill defined in Mordheim (except for setting warriors on fire (e.g. with a Brazier Iron)). There are two different rules for fire and buildings in the rulebook. One set of rules is in the "Let the Damned Burn" article from Town Cryer 8. The other set of rules are in the "Battle for the Farm" scenario in "The League of Ostermark" article from Fanatic Magazine 1. The "Forces of Nature" article in Border Town Burning attempted to consolidate fire rules for buildings (taken from "The League of Ostermark" article) together with the rules for setting warriors on fire (taken from the Brazier Iron) and also added rules for setting forests on fire. (Hmmm... that reminds me that I need to publish the article that I have written for fire that combines the unique elements from "Let the Damned Burn", "The League of Ostermark" and "Forces of Nature" in a seamless article.)

However, none of the published articles (nor my unpublished article) provide rules for vehicles (e.g. wagons, coaches) or boats on fire. I recommend investigating the Warhammer Ahoy! rules for fire on boats. The rules given below explain what to do once a boat is on fire. Warhammer Ahoy! also defines how to set a boat on fire (not repeated here) and how to fight fires on boats (not repeated here either).

If the rules for setting a boat on fire in Warhammer Ahoy! are too complex (as opposed to the rules when the boat is already on fire) then I recommend to use a roll (e.g. as per the "Let the Damned Burn" article) to determine if the boat is set on fire.

Warhammer Ahoy! wrote:

Fire Aboard Ships
Ships made predominantly of wood with large amounts of canvas sails, hemp ropes and carrying large quantities of gunpowder are extremely vulnerable to fire. Sometimes critical hits cause fires to break out as do hits from some weapons. (You will need fire markers to show a ship is on fire, you can use coins, counters or like us you can make flame and smoke counters)

A player controlling a vessel on fire must determine what happens to the fire at the start of the turn, before movement. This means that players may be forced to choose between manning the guns, controlling the ship or fighting fires.

Roll a D6 for each fire marker, adding +1 for each crewman attempting to put that fire marker out. A score of 6+ extinguishes the fire marker. A roll of a 1, even if several crew are attempting to extinguish the fire, sees the fire spread – add a further D3 fire markers to the vessel.

For each fire marker still burning roll a D6, but do not roll for any markers placed this turn as the result of fire spreading as these fires have yet to take a firm hold.

D6 Result
1-2 The fire continues to burn, but does no damage this turn.
3-5 The ship takes 1 structure point of damage.
6 The ship takes 1 structure point of damage, additionally, one crewman takes a S3 hit from burning timbers.

Edited to fix typo...

Welcome Aboard!

Your GM is making up or adapting his own rules for the fire arrows and his rules are much more deadly than existing published rules for Mordheim or Warhammer. This should be discussed.

If he was applying the rules from Let The Damned Burn your riverboat would catch fire on a 6 if it was treated the same as a house as opposed to a 3+. (Since a cannon shot would catch a ship on fire on a 5+ in Warhammer Ahoy! (version 2.0), a 6+ seems reasonable to me.

The rules from Let the Damned Burn also come with a table similar to the one quoted above.

Quote :

Fire Table
D6 Result
1 Fire goes Out – The fire has exhausted all of the flammable materials in the building and dies leaving a plume of thick smoke.

2-4 Keeps Burning – The flames continue to ravage the building but do not spread this turn.

5-6 Spreads – The fire spreads to the nearest (non-burning) building within 10". Roads cannot be set on fire due to the lack of substantial burning items. If, however, you have a road that is covered in flammable objects (crates, refuse, barricades etc.) you can count this as the nearest building.

Our group messes about on boats extensively. We use the [b\Warhammer Ahoy![/b] rules cited above. Generally only undermanned ships will burn to the waterline, but multiple fires have been the cause of more than one Captain striking his colors,

[Stubborn GM enters the room]

Quote :

There are two different rules for fire and buildings in the rulebook. One set of rules is in the "Let the Damned Burn" article from Town Cryer 8. The other set of rules are in the "Battle for the Farm" scenario in "The League of Ostermark" article from Fanatic Magazine 1. The "Forces of Nature" article in Border Town Burning attempted to consolidate fire rules for buildings (taken from "The League of Ostermark" article) together with the rules for setting warriors on fire (taken from the Brazier Iron) and also added rules for setting forests on fire.

An acute statement of the facts sir.

From the perspective of a shipwright (someone has to build these boats), what is a boat if not a building?

Quote :

If he was applying the rules from Let The Damned Burn your riverboat would catch fire on a 6 if it was treated the same as a house as opposed to a 3+. (Since a cannon shot would catch a ship on fire on a 5+ in Warhammer Ahoy! (version 2.0), a 6+ seems reasonable to me.

Town Cryer #8 featured primitive rules for burning ruins in Mordheim. The League of Ostermark article from Fanatic Magazine #1 featured more advanced rules. Cianty promoted the Fire Rules from Fanatic Magazine Border Town Burning.

The great thing about boats... They float because they're built from wood.

The not so great thing about boats... They burn because they're built from wood.

Fire Rules
Very few types of equipment are able to set
buildings/forests on fire. It must be specifically stated
in the rules otherwise only models may be set on fire.

SPECIAL RULES
Set on fire: Torches, Brazier Irons and Fire Arrows can
set buildings on fire. A model in base contact with a
building may use a Brazier Iron (or Torch) to set it
ablaze if it is neither shooting a missile weapon or
engaged in close combat that turn. Fire Arrows can be
shot in the Shooting phase at a building in order to
set it on fire. They may also throw the torch/brazier
iron up to 6" away to light a building but then the
item is lost.

Irrespective of the way a building is to be set on fire
consult the following table to determine what roll on
a D6 is required to successfully start the fire.

Building ............. D6 result required
Wooden building ... 4+
Stone building ....... 6+

Modifiers:
Torch, Fire arrows ........ +1
Fire bomb, Brazier iron
& other items ................. No bonus

The burning is resolved using the Burning House Table. Whether you're burning a boat, a house, a houseboat or a boathouse the same rules should apply for consistency.

When a location is hit, it is set on fire on a 4+ roll (3+ with Torch or Fire Arrows) then the burning effects from the chart does the rest.

Quote :

Our group messes about on boats extensively. We use the Warhammer Ahoy! rules cited above. Generally only undermanned ships will burn to the waterline, but multiple fires have been the cause of more than one Captain striking his colors.

Perhaps time to review/discuss the way you've been doing things.

'Warhammer Ahoy!' is fantastic for fighting large naval engagements using ships and Warhammer armies.

Mordheim games use rowing boats, riverboats and (for the wealthy) barges. The matter of scale is being ignored if players are setting multiple fires.

Cast your mind back to the Man O' War expansion for Warhammer for inspiration. The smallest ships only had 3 hit locations! If a Pirate Galley has 3 hit locations to be set on fire then presumably a riverboat has 1 location.



Yaargh!

Werekin

werekin wrote:

Quote :

If he was applying the rules from Let The Damned Burn your riverboat would catch fire on a 6 if it was treated the same as a house as opposed to a 3+. (Since a cannon shot would catch a ship on fire on a 5+ in Warhammer Ahoy! (version 2.0), a 6+ seems reasonable to me.

Town Cryer #8 featured primitive rules for burning ruins in Mordheim. The League of Ostermark article from Fanatic Magazine #1 featured more advanced rules. Cianty promoted the Fire Rules from Fanatic Magazine Border Town Burning.

You are wrong, dear sir. The rules from Let the Damned Burn in Town Cryer #8 are much more advanced than the rules in the League of Ostermark.

Let the Damned Burn
* Setting buildings on fire (equipment, spells, etc)
* Buildings on fire
* Extinguishing a fire
* Entering & exiting buildings on fire
* Moving inside buildings on fire (including frenzied warriors)
* Shooting
* Fire spreading

League of Ostermark
* Setting buildings on fire (with a torch)
* Buildings on fire
* Building collapse

I think that you are starry eyed at Nick Kyme being the author of the League of Ostermark and this is blinding you to the truth.

Just for fun I have put my rules for fire on Google Drive which combine Let the Damned Burn, League of Ostermark and BTB. You can access them here:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6hZG8hQqDwrckFPNGQ3U1E5M1E
Additions:
* Weather effects
* Jungle
* More equipment/spells
* Spreading fire & collapsing buildings

Still missing:
* Boats
* Vehicles

Quote :

You are wrong, dear sir. The rules from Let the Damned Burn in Town Cryer #8 are much more advanced than the rules in the League of Ostermark.

Nah. The latter article has advanced things. A lot tidier, more fast-paced, less boring admin. The round-up of guidelines in Border Town Burning is virtually all you need.

Quote :

I think that you are starry eyed at Nick Kyme being the author of the League of Ostermark and this is blinding you to the truth.

My adoration for Nicodemus and his articles is no secret. Most of the time Nick Kyme writes about dwarfs and I don't love them so much. So I'm glad Cianty picked up on all this good material and pointed it out for us. It has influenced me to put these principles to great use in the campaigns I've co-ordinated.

Quote :

Just for fun I have put my rules for fire on Google Drive which combine Let the Damned Burn, League of Ostermark and BTB. You can access them here:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B6hZG8hQqDwrckFPNGQ3U1E5M1E
Additions:
* Weather effects
* Jungle
* More equipment/spells
* Spreading fire & collapsing buildings

Great compilation man. The number of oversights is minimal. I've drawn up a shortlist. It's very short!

Quote :

Still missing:
* Boats
* Vehicles

Not missing really. Not if you apply the same logic to what already exists. Ships and boats are like buildings. Described in my previous post.

It could be the other way round, buildings are like ships and boats.



Noah built an ark, and so did the Dark Elves!

I built a troll-like trawler. What boat did you build?

Regards,

Werekin

Thanks Stu. I am happy to make adjustments if you want to send through to me your short-list of oversights in the article.

Yes I agree that Let the Damned Burn adds a lot of overhead / extra rules that may not be wanted in many battles. I like that it allows for more options over the League of Ostermark article though and I think that it makes some situations more clear. I also agree that treating a boat like a building is an appropriate for most gaming groups who don't use Warhammer Ahoy! rules. I hadn't thought of using building rules for boats previously. I still feel iffy about applying that to vehicles (e.g. wagons) though.

One thing that I really didn't like about fire rules for bulidings (in both Let the Damned Burn and League of Ostermark) is that it is necessary to roll for what happens with the fire at the start of each player's turn rather than once per round. I know that this may treat fire like a random event but it feels at odds with the rules where generally there is a turn for NPCs and other effects once per round. Therefore a subtle, deliberate tweak in my rules compliation is that the status of the fire will only change once per round rather than once per turn.

P.S. I don't get into the modelling section of the forum very often. I really like the Tipsy Troll which you have built.

werekin wrote:

Warhammer Ahoy!' is fantastic for fighting large naval engagements using ships and Warhammer armies.

Mordheim games use rowing boats, riverboats and (for the wealthy) barges. The matter of scale is being ignored if players are setting multiple fires.

In the words of the author:

Cap'n Swallowtail Tim wrote:

This set of rules is really intended to be a skirmish game... Warhammer Ahoy! Version 3, p. 1.

As I said we use the Warhammer Ahoy! rules for fires. This includes both setting them and putting them out. The rules assign a number of fire markers for each hit that starts a fire. If a ship has 6 fire markers after all attempts have been made to extinguish fires then the controlling player must roll to see if the magazine explodes. Great fun.

We play Mordhiem scale ship battles with ship models designed to hold around 15 to 20 28mm minatures. The models are 10 or so years old (some older) and we have played dozens if not hundreds of games with them. The EiF rules are a nice start, but they don't have much for the swash to buckle.

We started reporting our games on this forum in the spring of 2009 in a thread called 'The Pirates of Sartosa'.

https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t1577-pirates-of-sartosa#22844

I started building and playing with Warhammer scale ship models after Gary Chalk's article in White Dwarf back in the old century before WD hit a 100 issues. I own 6 small ships, 2 mediums and 2 large (24" long). You're a bit behind lad, pick up the pace!

Quote :

I am happy to make adjustments if you want to send through to me your short-list of oversights in the article.

It's more a case of minor points that aren't covered by existing Mordheim rules. Stuff that helps players feel more involved with the game when you're using boats, cargo objectives etc.

Once I get my core scenarios document for MiM in presentable state you may peruse it at your leisure.

Quote :

As I said we use the Warhammer Ahoy! rules for fires. This includes both setting them and putting them out. The rules assign a number of fire markers for each hit that starts a fire. If a ship has 6 fire markers after all attempts have been made to extinguish fires then the controlling player must roll to see if the magazine explodes. Great fun.

Chapter 3 - That's No Boat. 'Tis A Ship!

I want to use these rules for ships in scenarios where the game really revolves around activity on deck.

In general scenarios where there are boats being used to help warbands fulfil other objectives I am using the Fire Rules developed for Mordheim. If players become too immersed in the ship rules then scenario objectives risk becoming a secondary concern.

Fortunately there is a copy of the General's Compendium here on my table. If anyone doesn't have a copy there is one on sale here.

Quote :

You're a bit behind lad, pick up the pace!

What do you mean. I'm swabbing the decks since 1989.

Hi werekin,

I just noticed that you have developed some specialised rules for fire on boats in scenario 7 for MiM, the Illegal Salvage Operation scenario (http://libermalefic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/best-fight-scene.html).

I like the rules better than simply applying rules for buildings. I also think that those would translate well for setting wagons, coaches, etc on fire which was the final hole that I have wanted to fill. I am going to add your rules to my compilation article about fire in Mordheim. That article will finally be complete!

RL

I have a sinking suspicion that a stage coach can't sink unless it's driving over quicksand!

werekin wrote:

I have a sinking suspicion that a stage coach can't sink unless it's driving over quicksand!

Heh!

So have you added a Sinking Boat Chart to MiM? I just noticed a reference in the Illegal Salvage Operation scenario.

I've stolen the one from Warhammer Ahoy! It syncs perfectly almost word for word.

It's actually one of the coolest charts ever made. I've tweaked a bit of wording to suit the job but rules-wise it's spot on.

It seems to me that the concern of the OP was principally related to the ease with which a boat can be set on fire and destroyed, given that it is an expensive piece of warband equipment.

Unless I missed my guess, most of the fire rules were probably written with the destruction of scenery in mind, i.e. things that warbands have not invested in. If a building burns to the ground in a scenario I am playing, it may well impact the scenario outcome or cause harm to some of my warriors, but it doesn't chew apart a chunk of my warband's GC investment.

It is fine to say that for simplicity one should apply the same rules for burning buildings to burning boats, but I think it is important to take into account the difference between an expensive vehicle and a throwaway piece of scenery within the game mechanics.

I believe the OP's question could very well have been rephrased as, "why should I invest in a boat that has all of these stats that I pay good GC for when some noob with a cheap fire arrow can reduce it to kindling like a any other ruined house on the block?"

Scenery burns because it adds a fun dimension to a scenario. Warriors burn because it adds a fun dimension to hand-to-hand combat. Does it add much fun if an expensive piece of equipment gets shafted?

There are reasons why some folks use a revised critical hit table in Mordheim, or revised rules for armor. It doesn't make much sense to invest in a 200 GC big guy if it can get one-shotted by a 15 GC youngblood with a mace, and armor is arguably rather expensive for the bonus (or lack thereof) that it provides. It may be fluffy for a suit of heavy armor to cost an arm and a leg, but that doesn't make it a cost-effective investment.

Quote :

Why should I invest in a boat that has all of these stats that I pay good gold crowns for when some noob with...

Oh I have a better question.

"Why should I invest in a boat that has all of these stats that I pay good gold guilders for when some youngblood with a Thief Hired Sword come along and steals one?"

Quote :

Does it add much fun if an expensive piece of equipment gets shafted?

Actually yes. A lot.

Quote :

There are reasons why some folks use a revised critical hit table in Mordheim, or revised rules for armor.

Because they are village idiots!?

Well Werekin, people play games for all sorts of reasons, including Mordheim. Game mechanics are just that: game mechanics.

I mean, you all are not just discussing 'official' Mordheim rules. You are discussing alternate rules, house rules, experimental rules, and rules from a completely different game. The snarky response that only idiots would use house rules is quite misplaced indeed.

What a rule is intended to represent is an important point in any discussion of game mechanics, but so too is how those game mechanics interact with the broader spectrum of the game mechanics as a whole and what a given rule adds, if anything, to the game.

Having a piece of equipment with a significant vulnerability may be fun for you, but I daresay that in a game that quantifies the value of game pieces based upon how those pieces interact within the game rules, some game players may consider a significant vulnerability to 'devalue' a given game piece.

Clearly, your point is not that any rules outside the covers of the Living Morheim rulebook are taboo. Your point seems to be a muddled mixture of play official(ish) rules and enjoy Mordheim for what it is. I perfectly well understand the sentiment, but your reaction seems to indicate that anybody who doesn't play Mordheim your particular way should get stuffed. Adding a emoticon doesn't really change that. See what I did there?

Adding a emoticon does change that because that was my actual intent. I do not understand yours, meaning it's pointless to idly speculate.

'Pillocks' who prefer playing Mordheim without using valuable resources (like Critical Hit Tables from the advanced section of the Mordheim Rulebook) can get stuffed if it pleases them to do so.

So, who is up for stealing a river barge?

Just to clarify, are you saying that what you meant by the village idiot comment was that it is laudable for individuals to go outside of the "official" rules when playing Mordheim?

It seemed to me that you were simply disagreeing with what I had said.

My point was that the burning building rules that are being discussed seem to be rather the same with respect to their impact on the survivability of boats in Mordheim. The OP's question, it seemed to me, was rooted in a perception that it was 'unfair' for a boat to be destroyed so easily compared to (a) the statistics of the vehicle and (b) the cost of the item.

I understand your sentiment that crap happens in Mordheim, but my point was that there are plenty of folks who decide to create house rules to account for such similar perceived imbalances in the rules.

The opinion that crap happens in Mordehim is simply a play style based on accepting the hard luck nature of the rule set. Other Mordheim players have different views about the game, so perhaps it would be productive to discuss ways of mitigating the perceived problem of boats being destroyed too easily.

Von Kurst's citation of the Warhammer Ahoy! rules addressed this issue, but it was dismissed by you because it was out of line with the burning buildings rules. I submit that your opinion in this case is due more to your personal 'crap happens in Mordheim' play style than an attempt to address the issue at hand.

In other words, the discussion seemed to have briefly become a debate over whether boats burn as well as houses for reals, and therefore whether the OP should just suck it up and watch his boats burn on a 3+. Then it became a discussion about the best version of said boats burn on a 3+ rules.

My intent was to perhaps bring the discussion back to the perceived unfairness of boats burning on a 3+.

Timetwister wrote:

My GM advises that a fire arrow will set the boat on fire on a roll of 3+ if it is hit. He is using the rules for setting a building on fire. However I feel this must be wrong as the boat sits on water. Surely any crew should have the chance to put the fire out?

weeble1000 wrote:

It seems to me that the concern of the OP was principally related to the ease with which a boat can be set on fire and destroyed, given that it is an expensive piece of warband equipment.

Yeah you are right about the probable intent of the OP. I think that I missed that intent in my posts. It does seem that Werekin had a change of mind between his posts in June and my resurrection of this old thread. He has written new rules for burning boats that he included in his Illegal Salvage Operation scenario. The relevant portion of those rules are quoted here for convenience but you can find the full rules for burning boats in the scenario available via the link I posted above.

Quote :

If a hit is scored against a boat location it is set on fire on a D6 roll of 5+ with a Brazier Iron, Fire Bomb or Cathayan Candle/Firepot. A boat is set on fire on a roll of 4+ with a Torch or Fire Arrows. At the beginning of the player's next shooting phase locations set on fire suffer damage, losing D3 wounds on a D6 roll of 4+.

Additional flaming attacks made to a location that is already set on fire may only cause impact damage.

Firefighting: Crew on a boat can put out a fire in a single location. Roll a D6 at the end of a turn in which warriors did nothing but fight the fire. A single warrior will put out the flames on a roll of 6. Each additional crewman who assists in fighting the fire reduces the roll needed by -1. A roll of 1 is always a failure.

I think that these rules may alleviate some of the concerns of the OP. The fire will now start on a 4+ from Fire Arrows rather than a 3+ and will start on a 5+ for most other flaming attacks. Also, the warband has a chance to put out the fire before it causes damage or sinks the boat.

I fear we lost Timetwister's interest shortly after he joined, though I don't know if the discussion contributed or not.

Great round-up there Rational. The waters of this thread have been choppy. During the storm of words I did have a change of heart. It's interesting to look back at the progression. There has been much compelling discussion over the evidence.

I'm satisfied with what's contained in the scenarios leaking out on Liber Malefic. More yet to come.

To recap Von Kurst, our friend Timetwister is none other than Mr Stuart Webb who leads the Crime Cartel in my campaign! He had a lot of positive input for the scenario playtesting. You can read all about the exploits of the lascar Salaman Singh and his old Indic mob in the Grand Sewer Run. The mobsters will return in Eliazar's future battle report.

Ha! I knew that GM was making up rules!

GM sounds too much like an all powerful ruling position, associated with roleplaying games. Nobody needs to sit on a pedestal in a tabletop Mordheim campaign. We share responsibilty on addressing players issues in our campaign. I prefer the term 'facilitator', as described by JoaoS.

The hardest job is managing all of the various material when it's not coherent or readily available in one place. How many hand-outs can players deal with at once!?