Several different rules questions for a beginning league

First things first, hello everyone! I posted this on the SG forum this morning as well, though it doesn't look like it's had much traffic for quite a while. Apologies if some of you see this twice.

4 friends and started a league last week and none of us have played in quite a few years. A few questions popped up that we'd like to resolve before too long.

1. What exactly does "unobstructed line of sight" mean in reference to charging? Do you have to charge in a straight line or can you curve around models and small obstructions? How do you determine is something can be charged in the first place? I may need to post pictures to clarify the question...

2. At exactly what point during experience gains can you choose which stat to apply a units bonus to? As an example; I roll a 9 on the hero chart, then roll again for T or W. My T is maxed out already. Do I automatically take W or do I roll again? At which point can I apply that gain to any stat? The way I read it is that you roll your initial advance, then roll your sub advance if needed (W or T) if the one you roll is maxed you can take the other OR roll the initial advance again. If what you roll the second time is also maxed you can then apply the advance to any stat you want. This also allows you to avoid BS upgrades on H2H units, which is nice. (ie, M)

3. How do critical hits interact with troll regeneration? Do you roll the regen before or after the wounds are doubled?

4. How does shooting out of windows work, exactly? Can a model stick his body out the window and shoot down or to either side or is shooting from that position treated as standard line of sight only? The second option seems to make more sense to me, the first option would seem to make heavily shooty warbands even more difficult to deal with than they already are. It's tough enough to get into an elevated position without being pincushioned, never mind how hard it would be if you have nearly no place to hide!

Thanks for any help you can provide in advance!

1. When charging (or moving at all for that matter), a model can simply leap over smaller obstructions that are less than 1" high. Usually this allows you to charge in a straight line, but the rules also talk about "charging enemies that they cannot see" if they are within the model's Initiative in inches. This means that you CAN charge in a curve (ie, around a corner or such).
2. When you roll for advances, and one of the options that you roll is maxed, you automatically get the other option. If a model's T is maxed, then their W is increased. If both are maxed, then you may apply the advancement to any stat you like.
3. Critical hits are treated as 2 wounds, but the rules are kinda fuzzy when it comes to whether you take two separate saves for them. As I read it, a Critical Hit is treated as a single wound that you roll the Troll's Regeneration save for, and if you fail, the Troll takes 2 wounds.
4. Shooting out of windows is treated exactly like firing from cover as explained in the rulebook. Whether he can shoot directly down or not from his position is entirely situational. You may need to invest in a laser pointer to determine true line of sight for your games.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the reply, spectre!

The question regarding charging is specifically in reference to charging through or around friendly models. I think I would be better off taking some pictures of certain situations as it is difficult to convey spacial relationships on the tabletop via text. The real question in the mind of my gaming group is mostly what is meant by "unobstructed line of sight" in the rules for charging. If we can get a clear answer on that we can probably figure the rest out from there.

The troll regen thing is very sticky, indeed! One of players included one in his starting list and it's been difficult to deal with. That interpretation of the rule seems fine, but I feel that it makes regen too powerful. Are armor saves taken against a critical strike (assuming you roll a 1 or 2 on the crit chart) before or after doubling? I would infer that regen should be treated the same way.

Thanks again!

Jivetyrant you asked good questions - I'am playing for a long time but this charge thing is still unclear to me. Really - for me charge is as straight line move as possible not a slalom between other warriors and terrain.

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Are armor saves taken against a critical strike (assuming you roll a 1 or 2 on the crit chart) before or after doubling? I would infer that regen should be treated the same way.

Spectre is right:
(rulebook of course)

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1-2 Hits a vital part. The wound is doubled to 2
wounds. Roll any armour saves before
doubling the wound.

AND regeneration save is rolled immediately after wound is caused so before rolling on CH table.
Try not to attack the troll: atack the warboss instead. Shoot him if you can - even KD or stunned will give you one turn without troll-threat (if he fails his LD naturally). Always be vigilliant - if you suspect that troll is more than 6" from the leader point it out! Bur above all kill the leader!!

If you can see the model, you can declare a charge, but if your most direct path to the model is more than your double movement, you fail that charge. You can charge unseen models within Initiative Range if you pass your initiative test, and although you can magically detect hidden models within initiative range, you still need to pass an initiative test to charge them if they are unseen.

Those are the the rules directly from the book without adjustment.

We usually play you have to roll to find hidden and can charge anything within initiative range without rolling, but still can only charge models you can see (same rules as cover for seeing a model).

The rule book states 'by the most direct route into base-to-base' for charging.
Though whether you can charge depends on an unobstructed line (Line of Sight essentially), this doesn't impact the actual move.
It could be imagined that a model might spy an enemy from between two allies, but would then have to go around them to charge.

catachanfrog wrote:

regeneration save is rolled immediately after wound is caused so before rolling on CH table.

This is the simplest answer to the problem. Roll regen save, if this is failed, roll for crit.

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We usually play you have to roll to find hidden and can charge anything within initiative range without rolling, but still can only charge models you can see (same rules as cover for seeing a model).

I'm not sure what you mean here.

In game terms hidden models may be within line of sight of an enemy but are declared hidden if they can claim cover. These models lose hidden status if an enemy is within its initiative range or if an enemy model moves in such a way that the hidden model may no longer claim to be in cover because an enemy model has a clear line of sight.

Hidden models may not be charged or shot as long as they remain hidden.

Models which are out of line of sight but within 4 inches of a warrior that wishes to charge them may be charged if that warrior passes an initiative test.

Von Kurst wrote:

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We usually play you have to roll to find hidden and can charge anything within initiative range without rolling, but still can only charge models you can see (same rules as cover for seeing a model).

I'm not sure what you mean here.

In game terms hidden models may be within line of sight of an enemy but are declared hidden if they can claim cover. These models lose hidden status if an enemy is within its initiative range or if an enemy model moves in such a way that the hidden model may no longer claim to be in cover because an enemy model has a clear line of sight.

Hidden models may not be charged or shot as long as they remain hidden.

Models which are out of line of sight but within 4 inches of a warrior that wishes to charge them may be charged if that warrior passes an initiative test.

I know the rulebook rules, I'm saying we changed them so you don't have to roll to charge unseen models within initiative range and that to spot a hidden model you have to roll initiative. So if you want to charge a seen hidden model, you have to roll initiative. If you want to charge an unseen hidden model, you have to measure initiative distance and then roll initiative. If you want to charge an unseen model, you have to measure initiative and if you want to charge a seen model, you just measure distance as normal.

Seen meaning you physically see, hidden meaning declared hidden.

Side question, how do you play dsicovering a hidden model in multiplayer? If Warband A declares a hidden model, and Warband B can see the model completely (unhiding it), does that mean anyone from Warband C can now shoot the model? Does it depend on alliances or is hidden magically broken by outher warbands seeing your model?

brokenv wrote:

Side question, how do you play dsicovering a hidden model in multiplayer? If Warband A declares a hidden model, and Warband B can see the model completely (unhiding it), does that mean anyone from Warband C can now shoot the model? Does it depend on alliances or is hidden magically broken by outher warbands seeing your model?

Unless they are allied, I would simply say that a model would be hidden from one warband but visible to another.
Obviously this might get complex to remember, but not too much I don't think.

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I know the rulebook rules, I'm saying we changed them so you don't have to roll to charge unseen models within initiative range and that to spot a hidden model you have to roll initiative. So if you want to charge a seen hidden model, you have to roll initiative. If you want to charge an unseen hidden model, you have to measure initiative distance and then roll initiative. If you want to charge an unseen model, you have to measure initiative and if you want to charge a seen model, you just measure distance as normal.

House rule! That's what I didn't understand. And I still don't, (your explanation above says you don't roll to charge an unseen model and then says you DO roll to charge an unseen model.) But now I know its a house rule, so I'm good.

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Side question, how do you play dsicovering a hidden model in multiplayer?

Generally I don't think the sitiuation comes up all that often. We tend to hide at long ranges. We have a house rule against an alliance winning a game. You can ally but there can only be one winner so gang up all you want, but the allies are going to fight it out later.