On shields and armour

Forking from here.

Spectre76 wrote:

@Lord 0,
So do you think more in terms of shields being like bucklers? To give bonuses to parrying rather than armor? I personally agree that Light armor and Heavy armor should have their costs halved, as we do in the campaign we're playing, but we also give Shields added the 8th edition parry save of 6+ no matter what, thereby increasing the appeal of shields to discourage spamming of dual-wielding. It's been accepted pretty well with the group.

To further go on this tangent, what about penalizing Initiative ONLY in tests for climbing and jumping in Heavy armor? The Movement penalty never really bothered me that much, but there are some guys in the group that are wanting to incorporate a Strength Skill that removes the penalty.

In my group we have shields giving +1 to the armour save and both shields and bucklers giving +1 to the armour save in melee and I am fairly happy with that*. Bucklers and shields are used differently to each other in RL and the mechanics reflect how they are used as well as can be expected in a game of this scale - especially one that is this far over to the 'game' side of the game vs simulation slider.

That being said, we have never really been truely happy with the underlying parry mechanic and in my group we are playing around with other options. The one we are testing at the moment is that a parry is a flat 5+ parry save with modifiers. The modifiers are:
+1 if your WS double your opponent's.
-1 if your WS is less than your opponent's.
-1 if your opponent is stronger.
-2 if you are knocked down (the heroic parry while you are down makes for great cinema ).

There are also assorted skills we are playing with, e.g. ones that let you parry with a weapon you normally can't parry with, or re-roll a parry if it does let you parry, that sort of thing.

We also have the rule that each parrying item you have allows you another parry. You can still only parry each attack once, of course. The above rules make parry stronger, but we have also made whips, morning stars, and flails ignore parrys.

As far as heavy armour goes, I think making it that if you are in heavy armour you climb and jump based on the lower of S or I. A S test to use the skill Jump Up might also be appropriate. Ithilmar would, of course, not have that penalty, but in my group we treat Ithilmar as Light Armour anyway.

As an alternative, if you have Heavy Armour and a shield then your M is capped to your S would be appropriate.


*Bucklers still give the parry save too.

My initial reaction is that for high WS warbands (dwarves, elf variants) parry weapons become quite powerful - a 50% chance of blocking most blows, since in most cases their WS will be higher than their opponents' WS. Interesting set of rules, though (and I do like the image of the downed fighter knocking aside the killing blow).

It is quite powerful, but not impenetrable. Remember, it is not like an armour save — you don't get to parry *every* blow, only the first and maybe the second if you have something else that parries. And sucks-to-be-you if your opponent has a morning-star, flail, or whip. And if you are S3 and they have S3, DHW, and Mighty Blow then you aren't parrying squat. If you *are* S4, then you will be seeing more diving charges and I don't think that is a bad thing at all (S4, DHW, Mighty Blow, and Diving Charge = S8).

In any case, good old overwhelming numbers seems to counter it well enough so far.

Edit: Just remembered, we changed 'you have to parry the highest' to 'you have to parry the first' and the whip is a common weapon that needs weapons training and is S-1, +1 armour save.

Yeah, we treat Ithilmar armor as Light armor as well. We're also incorporating Full Plate armor as well as Gromril for a 4+ save, but having Gromril always give a minimum of 5+ armor no matter what. This justifies the cost of 150 crowns, which we haven't reduced, but we have upped the rarity to 12.

Spectre76 wrote:

Yeah, we treat Ithilmar armor as Light armor as well. We're also incorporating Full Plate armor as well as Gromril for a 4+ save, but having Gromril always give a minimum of 5+ armor no matter what. This justifies the cost of 150 crowns, which we haven't reduced, but we have upped the rarity to 12.

Those are some nice ideas. I'm going to talk about them with my group. I especially like the "light" ithilmar armor,since in raw verision it is just overpriced heavy armor (and for what? No penalties with shield! Wheeee! My dream come true ). Maybe a "no less than" 6+ for ilthirmar too?

Anyway, those changes don't seem over the edge.

I was thinking about shields too. In combat, they are used to block hits, right? A model with a shield could have a special "block" save (in HTH) - after scoring a hit opponent has to roll under his strength in order to knock shield aside. If he passes, roll to wound as normal. If he fails no damage is done. Can be used once per round of combat, to block first successful hit. Scoring 6 during block test is always a fail.

We thought about the extra save, but a shield giving a 5+ armour save in melee (1 base, +1 AS in melee) seems to do the trick by giving plausable protection without more dice needing to be rolled.

Someone in armour with a shield is *very* hard to work around and I think a single 3+ save reflects that better than a 5+ and then a 6+.

Unless you meant they get the 6+ in addition to the adding to the armour save? That would work. Oh, and working against shooting too (maybe against the first hit, maybe against all hits — we will have to playtest)*.

Although, instead of giving it a new mechanic it could just as easily get the parry ability too. Yeah, shields and bucklers give +1 to parry, shields give the 6+ always save vs shooting (except blackpowder), bucklers give +1 to hit, Shields are -1I, -2S when used to shield-bash, bucklers -1I, -1S when used to shieldbash...

Anyway, lots of ideas and stuff for the next round of playtesting.

*On re-reading that wasn't what you said at all. Mostly what you do with a shield *especially* when you are skirmishing or dueling is you deflect a blow rather than block it per se so the parry thing still fits.

Our group counts ithilmar as light armor as well; after all, elves wear the stuff.

Lord 0 wrote:

Unless you meant they get the 6+ in addition to the adding to the armour save? That would work. Oh, and working against shooting too (maybe against the first hit, maybe against all hits — we will have to playtest)*.

Yes, in addition to the extra armor save, the model with the shield essentially has a 6+ ward save in melee. We don't have it against shooting though. It's doing enough for the 5 gc!

I just remember Craig Ferguson's character from "How to Train your Dragon". "If you have a choice between a sword and a shield, always choose the shield!"

We played that buckler wielding models can make a dagger attack (buckler has a spike or warrior wields a dagger and a buckler in one hand/buckler is strapped to the forearm). Can't find historic reference now, but aureus is my witness that such "technique" was in use.
Or mayby something like these special rules:
Shield guard: Instead of fighting normally (initiative order), warrior may choose to strike last but any armour save he makes (when he's using a shield naturally) gets an additional +1 (2?) bonus?
and
(can't find a name): warrior may not charge, climb or jump (may make his normal movement or run) but any shooting against him is resolved with -1 to hit modifier for being in cover. This represents warior moving with a shield angled to cover m

Here's an article on what you're talking about:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBucklerP3.htm
Notice that the pics of the bucklers they are using look EXACTLY like the Mordheim Bucklers off the extra equipment sprue.
I've heard of small shields having spikes on the sides, but they seem to be custom jobs. Haven't seen much in the way of historical support one way or the other though.
Another idea I had came from Warhammer Historical Battles: Tower Shields. They restrict Movement an additional -1, but provide an additional +1 armor vs. melee and +2 armor vs. shooting.

Spectre76 wrote:

Another idea I had came from Warhammer Historical Battles: Tower Shields. They restrict Movement an additional -1, but provide an additional +1 armor vs. melee and +2 armor vs. shooting.

There is something like that. Can't remember in which towncryer, though. There is available "Pavaise" with similar properties (+2 AS), but it reduces movement by half. Needless to say, only reasonable warband to use them are dwarf treasure hunters (no movement restrictions for armor). And there is small "problem" with them - no one has them on their list, and there is no annotation like "count as shield", or anything like it. Thus players must decide between themselves how can it be used.

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Here's an article on what you're talking about:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBucklerP3.htm

Well, interesting read, but there is nothing "new" there. Swords with bucklers, rapiers with daggers - combos available through Mordheim "raw" rules.
"At one point against two attackers it even shows the use of sword with buckler and dagger in the same hand." - only sentence that refers to bucklers and daggers. Im not saying, that daggers weren't used in such manner, but I can hardly call that a common practice.

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We played that buckler wielding models can make a dagger attack (buckler has a spike or warrior wields a dagger and a buckler in one hand/buckler is strapped to the forearm). Can't find historic reference now, but aureus is my witness that such "technique" was in use.

So we did, But at some point we stopped using that homerule. I can't recall any bucklers being used in battle after that.
I tried to google "sword buckler dagger" to see what uncle Google has to say about it. He was rather taciturn, I mostly found links for "sword and buckler vs. sword and dagger" and the like.

I do recall some image of a warrior with sword, buckler and dagger but cant remember anything more than that. Maybe he was into non-mainstream stuff?

Quote :

Shield guard: Instead of fighting normally (initiative order), warrior may choose to strike last but any armour save he makes (when he's using a shield naturally) gets an additional +1 (2?) bonus?
and
(can't find a name): warrior may not charge, climb or jump (may make his normal movement or run) but any shooting against him is resolved with -1 to hit modifier for being in cover. This represents warior moving with a shield angled to cover m

Naw, strike last for +2 AS doesn't seem to be a fair trade. Some zombie (or other runt) scores a critical and the guy will suffer a wound anyway. Though the second part is interesting, could be usable against shooty warbands, providing it is cumulative with "regular" cover save. On the other hand, movement restrictions would give more time to pincushion model with shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG0Qelco8ek

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXvF1q7WrQ&feature=related

Yes yes, I know that youtube is hardly a history textbook (and the guys in second clip look hilarious ), but seeing how modern "warriors" use shields in combat is somewhat inspiring. Call it deflecting or blocking, shield was actively used in combat to defend against incoming hits (INB4 you don't say ), and rules should reflect that in some way. Without some serious changes shield will never be any competition for dual wield or even 2HW (we play that 2HW act like a normal weapon in first round of combat, and + 2S bonus makes heavy armor non-existant)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4UQcN_vJbs&feature=related - guy with shield easily defeats a dual wielder. Currently unavailable in Mordheim


Anyway - Armor in general desperately needs an overhaul before our campaign. Hope we will find some ideas that we both could agree upon

I'm so interesting in this threath.
In mu club we use shield with +1 to hand to hand if you have a hand weapon (sword, axe, ...) or lance, but no with dagger.
Then is +1/+2 in hand to hand and +1 to missile weapons to save.

The problem are the armours.
So expensive, and no help very much in hand to hand because soon people have miniatures with high strong or the criticals hits that a lot of times quit amour save.

I'm thinking to apply the rules that i watch in diferents sites, as apply the save amour to injuries post game, or change the "quit amour" to negatives to save.

But if born a good idea from this post i'd like know it.

Quote :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG0Qelco8ek

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXvF1q7WrQ&feature=related

in first link, as in japanese martial arts:: "you stand still and I'll move around you to stick my sword into your ass" and in second...well. It's simple "to hit past shield game". With their 1-2lbs swords they can get a few bruises (unless they stab).
I

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Naw, strike last for +2 AS doesn't seem to be a fair trade. Some zombie (or other runt) scores a critical and the guy will suffer a wound anyway. Though the second part is interesting, could be usable against shooty warbands, providing it is cumulative with "regular" cover save. On the other hand, movement restrictions would give more time to pincushion model with shield.

Critical can happen anytime, even if you sucesfully cast armor prayer so that's not a point. The second part about combining shield with reg cover save, brings one of my favorite discussion topics: different kinds of cover. Unfortunatetly in mordheim there's no distinction in cover types like in necromunda or warhammer. If you had a -2 to hit "shield", shooting warbands would be uselss (de facto any missle weapon). Moving/RUNNING with -1 to hit is fair in my opinion.
P.S Has anyone have BL "the Primarchs" or "Red Duke" in pdf?

catachanfrog wrote:

Critical can happen anytime, even if you sucesfully cast armor prayer so that's not a point. The second part about combining shield with reg cover save, brings one of my favorite discussion topics: different kinds of cover. Unfortunatetly in mordheim there's no distinction in cover types like in necromunda or warhammer. If you had a -2 to hit "shield", shooting warbands would be uselss (de facto any missle weapon). Moving/RUNNING with -1 to hit is fair in my opinion..

Critical hits may happen anytime, but by choosing to "strike last" you give the enemy an opportunity to score one. But lets analyze this:
- lets say, that a hero has a shield, and a hammer - deciding to strike last in exchange for 5+ save is very risky, since the save may be easily bypassed (high S, criticals, lousy armor rolls)

Now the "high tier" option - shield, heavy armor - Having a 3+ save would be nice, but that depends on the situation. If a hero is facing some "easy" opponent like zombie, then probably he would not need to use shields special ability (though his offensive abilities still would be reduced). On the other hand - choosing to strike last against "high tier" opponents (like orc boss, vampire, possessed etc.) is very risky - allowing them to land all their blows before retaliating... hmm... I wouldn't go for that (if I had any other option). When facing multiple opponents it gets worse - more beating to go through.

Besides, how would it work - if model was charged ( or he would "strike last" due to other circumstances: lower I, recovery from knock down etc.) would he use this ability automatically (since he has nothing better to do anyway?)

With shields I would rather go for some special ability that would not affect AS, since it has rather fickle nature - it can be easily bypassed. But then again dwarf with gromril and shield could be a nightmare for most henchmen -> 2+ AS. Strike last? why not, dwarf will strike last probably anyway.

I'd prefer some more active abilities, like "parrying" variation or "shield bash" (additional weapon, +1 enemy AS, for example), or something else (ideas?).

Anything could do, as long as it would turn shield into viable option, though.

I just had an idea based on the spirit of what everyone's been talking about: Shields could negate any armor negatives in close combat to represent the barrier effect it can have, assuming the wielder is skilled enough (a combat skill, perhaps?).
Still, from a balance perspective, we're only talking about a 5gc common item here. I think these are all good house rules to go on, and like a game-designer friend always tells me, "always play-test the silly rules, because players will ALWAYS come up with ideas you didn't plan on or think about."

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Critical hits may happen anytime, but by choosing to "strike last" you give the enemy an opportunity to score one. But lets analyze this:
- lets say, that a hero has a shield, and a hammer - deciding to strike last in exchange for 5+ save is very risky, since the save may be easily bypassed (high S, criticals, lousy armor rolls)

1) so why bothering with armour at all? "lousy armour rolls" are in the same bag as "lousy to wound/hit/injuries/initiative" rolls - it proves nothing. When it's obvious that enemy will negate your save you don't have to choose it right?

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Now the "high tier" option - shield, heavy armor - Having a 3+ save would be nice, but that depends on the situation. If a hero is facing some "easy" opponent like zombie, then probably he would not need to use shields special ability (though his offensive abilities still would be reduced). On the other hand - choosing to strike last against "high tier" opponents (like orc boss, vampire, possessed etc.) is very risky - allowing them to land all their blows before retaliating... hmm... I wouldn't go for that (if I had any other option). When facing multiple opponents it gets worse - more beating to go through.

As you said it depends on situation. WArrior who strikes last but is armoured in the way you described has higher chances of survival and requires more manpower to be put down.

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Besides, how would it work - if model was charged ( or he would "strike last" due to other circumstances: lower I, recovery from knock down etc.) would he use this ability automatically (since he has nothing better to do anyway?)

Exactly. I think that you can hide behind your shield whenever you like.
Mayby:
shield:the same but allows parry
buckler: the same but allows a "dagger strike" (yes i really like the idea of spiked buckler )

catachanfrog wrote:

1) so why bothering with armour at all? "lousy armour rolls" are in the same bag as "lousy to wound/hit/injuries/initiative" rolls - it proves nothing. When it's obvious that enemy will negate your save you don't have to choose it right?

I meant only that armor is too easy to bypass the way it is now. Rolls are just one way to fail a save, but there are many other ways. I'd like armor to offer "reasonable" (or at least better than now) protection for its price. Currently some of the armor types are almost completely obsolete (shields, light armor, ilthilmar, even bucklers - second attack is still better than very restrictive parry),what remains are helmets, heavy armor and gromril

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As you said it depends on situation. WArrior who strikes last but is armoured in the way you described has higher chances of survival and requires more manpower to be put down.

That is correct, but it is only slightly (and costly - 55gc. whole exploration phase booty) higher chance of survival, and model offensive abilities are reduced by half (if he has 1A). Dual wield maces and hardened leathers cost a total of 11 gc. - In my opinion more "reasonable" combination

Which reminds me - I would like to change hardened leathers from "equipment" to "armor" type of item - henchmen too deserve some degree of protection!

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Mayby:
shield:the same but allows parry
buckler: the same but allows a "dagger strike" (yes i really like the idea of spiked buckler )

Why not, though in that case I would go for similar ruling with shields (shield bash?). Second attack (even with positive AS) is quite strong addition to normal buckler rules. And maybe higher prices for both: 8gc. for buckler and 12 gc. for shields (or 10 gc. and rare 6 - good shield not so easy to find)?

I'm flirting with a new version of Mordheim rules that deals with armour in three ways:

1- Shield Saves on Hits - 4 varieties of shields offerring mitigatable and unmitagatable saves of 5+ or 6+

2- Armour Saves on Wounds - 4 varieties of Armour offering mitigatable and unmitigatable saves of 5+ and 6+

3- Helmet Saves for Injuries - 4 Varieties of Helmets, offering saves on being stunned and/or saves on being OOA on 5+ and 6+

With these changes, the only thing that will mitigate armour is crits or weapon bonuses, not strength. Weapons are all overhauled to show these mitigations. ideas?

There's been a lot of talk about making armor/shields more viable, especially in the "Obsolete Weapons" thread. I've had some chance to talk with some of the guys I play regularly with, and have come up with some ideas to make it at least more of an option than before. Most of this is nothing really new, but also seems to be what everyone agrees on thus far:

1.) We halve the cost of Light and Heavy armor. For many this is enough, though I think there are other ways to improve them without radically changing the mechanics of the game.

2.) Shield either a.) give an additional+1 AS when combined with a hand weapon OR b.) allow the 6+ ward save in close combat on top of the armor.

Alternatively one could try the idea of a shield offering this rule change: In addition to the +1 AS a shield gives, the first enemy in Melee combat against a model with a shield must make 2 rolls to hit for each attack and take the lowest. This only works for the first enemy model, however.

3.) Ithilmar armor will not have its' cost reduced, but is treated as Light Armor and will always allow a 6+ armor save, even against critical hits that ignore armor. (This does not combine with the 6+ parry save idea).

4.) Gromril armor will also not have reduced cost, and will always allow a 5+ armor save, even against critical hits that ignore armor. (Again, this does not combine with the 6+ parry save idea.)

5.) Incorporating Full Plate armor into the rules. This allows a 4+ armor save and is treated as Heavy Armor for movement penalties. It costs 100 gc and is Rarity 8.

6.) Allowing the winner of the skirmish to retrieve the gear of slain models (friend AND foe). Not a huge game-changer, but at least gives more incentive to stick around, rather than voluntarily retreat. This will only work for heroes and henchmen that are dead after the battle, obviously.

Thoughts?

Catachanfrog and me had a brainstorm recently, results are as follows:

• Having strength greater or equal than S4 (on a profile) provides a total -1 enemy AS.

• Weapon strength bonus is separated from its armor piercing abilities. Example: two handed weapon provides +2S bonus, but only -1 enemy AS, morning star: -1 enemy AS in the first round of combat, and so forth. Basically no weapon provides armor penetration greater than -1. There are only two exceptions: balckpowder weapons (-2 AS) and "big guys" who cant equip any weapons(trolls, possessed, ratogres - AS bonuses apply as for normal Mordheim rules)

• Dark venom doesn't affect AS (idea is "realism" based - poison may help to wound, but it doesn't burn through armor)

• Superior gunpowder provides an additional enemy AS bonus for black powder weapons (-3 enemy AS total)

This way, a S4 model armed with 2HW has a total -2AS bonus in combat. Since not everybody will have either S4, or weapons with strength bonuses, armor choices will be more viable, even shields.

Surprisingly, we both agree to those changes Mutual agreement is not a common event in our group

minsc. changes:

• Iltilmar armor is to be considered "light armor"

• Toughned leathers are an armor type of item, not equipment (cheap choice for henchmen)

Damn, now I started to wonder. If a character fights barehanded, can he poison his attacks?

I really like the -1 AS total for anything Strength 4+ combined with a -1 AS for any weapons with an AS besides Blackpowder. I hope this means Crossbows total out at -1 AS, cause anything to lessen the power of a crossbow and help the poor handgun is a good move in my book. I'd let possessed ride with a -1 total, unless they get claws for -2. Large creatures alone should have the standard rules imo.

Also, I like the idea of (nearly) all warriors just starting with leather armour, like a dagger.

brokenv wrote:

I really like the -1 AS total for anything Strength 4+ combined with a -1 AS for any weapons with an AS besides Blackpowder. I hope this means Crossbows total out at -1 AS, cause anything to lessen the power of a crossbow and help the poor handgun is a good move in my book. I'd let possessed ride with a -1 total, unless they get claws for -2. Large creatures alone should have the standard rules imo.

Also, I like the idea of (nearly) all warriors just starting with leather armour, like a dagger.

Exactly, crossbow AS modifier is unchanged (-1 AS).

Possesed are a bit of a problem here - they are big, nasty killing machines, right? It is difficult for possessed player to buy his warband with all desired mutations, and buying mutations later on is difficult/risky. I don't remember if "rewards of the Shadowlord" are restricted to mutants only, or not - from what I recall only other way of gaining mutation is "power in the stones" optional ruleset. Gromril-clad dwarf with shield would be a tough enemy for possessed without claw, where members of other warbands could best such foe using proper equipment. Maybe, since possessed are a special case, -1 AS on S4, and -2As on S5? Claw could provide possessed with an additional -1AS.

Toughened leathers should do fine as "armor for the people", small bonus for a small fee. Though I just remembered, t. leathers should be added to warbands equipment lists. Otherwise it would be somewhat impractical to recruit new models into existing "armored" henchmen groups.

I've been contemplating setting a 5+ save for shields (and reduced armour cost) for an upcoming campaign I'm planning, but one thing stuck out that might be a bit iffy.

I generally run Black Orcs. With heavy armour and a shield they end up with a 2+ save (and a possible 1+ with gromril).

Yes they're slowed down but is that too much?

Shields should give a 4+ save against crits. Similar to helmets. That would balance it against two-weapon fighters.