Bretonnian Warband - the Knight's Retinue

I may grab ye olde Bretonnian WH army booke and have a look, and see if inspiration strikes. We play a lot of D&D, and I associate "paladin" very heavily with those game mechanics.

I understand.

Paladins are the "Hero" choice (knight class)
Lord is the "Lord" choice
Knight Errant
Knight of the Relm
-Pegasus Knight (Knights of the Relm)
Questing Knight
Grail Knight

The 5th edition book doesn't change that ether if I remember that right

Bretonnians are the WHFB army I play and 2nd choice for Mordheim warbands.

Pervavita wrote:

I understand.

Paladins are the "Hero" choice (knight class)
Lord is the "Lord" choice
Knight Errant
Knight of the Relm
-Pegasus Knight (Knights of the Relm)
Questing Knight
Grail Knight

The 5th edition book doesn't change that ether if I remember that right

Bretonnians are the WHFB army I play and 2nd choice for Mordheim warbands.

I thought the lord choice was called a duke?

i thought your mom was called a duke






i'm sorry, that wasn't helpful

Duke is one of them but Paladins are other hero choices.

I have two Bretonnian army books - the current one (2003) and the one published in 1996 (was there one in between?).

In the current one, as Pervavita notes, the Lord choices are = "Lord" and "Prophetess of the Lady".

In the '96, the Bretonnian general = "Bretonnian General".

It is interesting to look at the stats and descriptions of some of the troop choices. In 1996 you had "squires", (mounted and foot versions), commoners who serve the knights "in peace and war". In the 2003 book foot squires are dropped and mounted squires are renamed "mounted yeoman", which is historically a more accurate name for the unit as described on both books. In the case of the regular infantry, the '96 version had men-at-arms and archers (WS 3, BS 3, and Ld7); the 2003 version has men-at-arms and peasant bowmen (WS 2, BS 2 for the m-a-a and 3 for the pbs, and Ld 5 for both).

Basically, I included the old '96 professional retainer versions men-at-arms and bowmen; Pervavita is happier with a configuration closer to the current Bretonnian army list.

In terms of names... I am leaning toward "Knight of Bretonnia" for the captain (which, if you will, is another way of saying "Knight of the Realm"), and using "knight errant" for a promoted squire.

I only lean to the newer configuration (ie peasants suck) because I don't think that any nation would make such a drastic change and so I see the new rule book as replacing the old in the fluff. To me it doesn't make sense for example that Questing Knights would be just a better knight then the rest but act just the same (5th ed) and then a few houndred years all of a suden tradition would state that they lay down there lance/property/title/wealth to go on Quest (6/7th ed). Same holds true to Peasants IMHO.
I do not like the fluff change is Peasants from 5th to 6th ed but As I said I feel that is the direction that GW wanted to take and thats why I have it influence my opinion.

On the knight leader; I only say Paladins for this as it allows you the player to chose of what rank knight your leader is. Directing back to before on fluff, A Questing Knight would not use a Lance but would use a Great Weapon and only a Questing Knight would (as far a knights go).
Knight Errant for the new Knight fits perfect.

The fluff not changing is also why I advocated the change to the Curse of the Lady of the Lake in my change to the Bretonnian Warband. I don't see the Lady changing her blessing around every few houndred years, so i think GW thought the change was needed for the army and so it would apply to the warband as well.

don't get me wrong this list I think is better then the offical (or rather unoffical) list. I love the more unique heroes. not 100% sure I like the damsil in the list not because she sucks or is OP but rather Bretonnians have a vary weak magic phase compared to other nations in the GW world, also the fact that I don't see a Damsil traveling to Mordheim at all. but hey doesn't mean I can't enjoy the idea.

Yeah, the damsel is a bit dodgy maybe, but she does make the list more interesting (and perhaps the Lady is concerned about all this wyrdstone stuff).

I am going to go, at least for now, with "Bretonnian knight" for the captain and as you suggested "knight errant" for a promoted squire.

bretonnian knight seems a bit redundant though doesn't it? Not that it really matters as long as the name is different, but i don't really see much of a reason why he couldn't be a Baron, or maybe the slightly lesser Baronet, which is historically the "rank" right above knight.

He's wandering around the Empire, far from home. I would think a baron/baronet would be home minding the estate if there's isn't a good war on. I see this fellow more as a younger son type, so he's off to make a name for himself. Of course, anyone running this warband can make up a backstory for their captain, including giving him a title and a rationale for being in Mordheim.

The Empire has knights, and I imagine some of the other human nations/independent cities do. So Bretonnian knight is not redundant, I don't think.

i just meant its redundant since its a "bretonnian knight" in a bretonnian warband, but i guess that depends on if the official name for the band is "bretonnian knights retinue" or "knights retinue". Obviously, not a big deal or anything. I still think "baronet" could be appropriate. Baronets weren't nobility, they were commoners like knights. Essentially it was just a hereditary knighthood. However, i don't think theres any fluff supporting bretonnia even having baronets.

Knights weren't commoners. They weren't nobles either, of course, but they were part of the feudal order.

I see what you are saying now about the redundancy. Sort of like using "the Reiklander captain" for the captain of a Reiklander band.

whoops, meant gentry, not commoners. "Gentle, but not ennobled".

Anyways, I like the band, definitely a step up from the GW one.

Thanks. Hopefully they will play well. Hard to know if a band is balanced until they have been field-tested.

Well, to give this a bump. I'm going to use this warband in a campaign. One thing that I've noted though is this...

My knight starts off with Ld8. With the 'bretonnian' rule, he goes up to Ld9. I gave the squire the banner, which puts the knight up to Ld10 if within 12''. So, with 'man of faith', the waband auto passes it's first rout test and is then Ld10 thereafter. The only other warband that starts off like that are dwarf rangers, and even they don't get the free auto-pass.

Sure, the warband gets some penalties (such as the knight getting only Ld8 when using the banner to be the correct warband size), but it is quite good. Is this intended?

To fix this, how about simplify the banner?

Pre-Change Banner
* Uses 1 hand
* All models within 12'' gain +1 Ld
* Post battle, if knight passes a Ld test then warband does not count as +1 size
* When looking for loyal vassals, +1 to find them (ie: 5+ to find one becomes 4+)

Post-Change Banner
* Uses 1 hand, +1 to hit
* Gives the wielder Leader skill with range of 6'', using knight's Ld. If knight is within range, +1 Ld for fear tests. Same for friendly loyal vassals who are in range of both.
* All post-game bonuses are lost

This makes the banner less powerful in that the warband will no longer be impossible to break (Ld9 instead of Ld10), and while useful post-game it is no longer *needed*. The main point of it, is that it represents the knight, and those under it will fight as if though their lord were present. This frees the knight up to charge forward heroically, and if he does fall, his men won't lose heart. Moreso, the increase the leadership of the bearer to the knight's leadership represents him being braver when holding the colors. And finally, seeing as how losing a weapon is a big deal, the +1 to hit is fluffy and helps out in combat.

And btw, I say this going into a campaign where nobody causes fear thus far. And I'm taking 3 archers and 2 men-at-arms, even though the "smart" thing to do would be to take archers and mercenaries. So none of this would help me, but I think it makes the warband more fair.

------------

Also, perhaps to make a bit more of a difference with henchmen, how about combine archers and men-at-arms together (allow men-at-arms to take bows and price them at 25gc), and add in a new unit. Grail Pilgrims, perhaps?

Grail Pilgrims
30gc: M4 WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld10
- Crazed (Hatred, Auto Pass all Ld tests, Can never become warband leader)
Use men-at-arms equipment list.

Then have Mercenaries use the Men-at-Arms list, but with this:
20gc: M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6
-Unreliable: May never become heroes (what knight would trust a mercenary?)
And for their Ld6...the way I see it, Bretonnians won't know how to pick out the 'good' mercenaries. And even for the ones they do hire who know how to fight, the mercenaries won't really respect them in the way that they would when fighting for their home province. So when it comes to asking them to fight possessed, vampires and ogres, they'll be more likely to say "Y'know, those shillings just 'aint worth it.' While a vassal of the knight will grit his teeth and charge, yelling "For Lady and Lord!"

20gc: Cheap mercenary trash. They'll fight for gold, but won't die for it. And you'll never really trust them.
25gc: Solid, well trained, soldiers. When they see their lord, or their flag, they'll fight and die for you.
30gc: Religious fanatics. Great to have around, but you won't follow them.

At the very least, I'd like to hear what people think about these changes before the campaign starts on Monday. Especially you, MWeaver, because I love this warband, and as it is yours, your input would be greatly appreciated.

Hi, Grumbaki - delighted to hear you are going to field test this lot. I have not played much Mordheim this past year (except as an extension of our D&D campaign), so my plans to try them out have not come to fruition.

When I read your comments on the Leadership issue, I thought "ah - he has misinterpreted the rule". But you haven't - I did not make it clear that the knight himself does not receive a boost to his leadership because he is Bretonnian - the other Bretonnians react to him as if his leadership was higher. So that +1 bump does not affect rout tests. As originally written, he would bump himself since he has the Bretonnian special rule. I have edited the rules here to correct this error. Thanks for the catch!

You are of course free to mess with the henchman rules (or any of the rules) as you see fit (assuming the other players agree, of course). I like having the archers and men-at-arms separate because they would have been trained in very different ways; but in game terms I don't think it makes a lot of difference. Well... I suppose it does in terms of the number of Bretonnian henchman that can be armed with bows.

Grail Pilgrims... I guess I just don't see them in my vision of the band, but I don't think your adding them is a problem in game terms. I see the band as a knight and his loyal retainers - men from his estate (the Novice of the Lady being the odd one out here). The Pilgrims don't fit so neatly into that category. But if you like them, add them. I suppose you could also say the band can only contain Grail Pilgrims if it has a Novice of the Lady.... and they leave if she dies.

The local recruits: I never decided exactly what to do with them. Dropping LD by 1 point is one approach I considered - although it doesn't hurt much if they aren't having to make Fear checks. Saying they can't be promoted might be the extra weakness I was looking for, and it makes some sense, too (the more promising recruits would already be recruited by other, Empire, warbands).

Looking forward to hearing how they work out!

Thanks for the response! As per the Bretonnian rule, I didn't see too much of a problem with the knight getting +1Ld. It's just +2 that made me go "hmm". One thing I find odd though, is that the Knight will give his henchmen Ld9, but is at Ld8 himself, making them braver than him. Is this intentional?

As for the henchmen, I think that I had this though in part because of the campaign I am using them in. It is set in Mousillon, and the knight is a questing knight looking for Maldred's grail. This means that having some zealots following him around makes sense. The penalties to income/hiring represents locals remembering exactly what that damned grail meant to their land.

But overall, I love this warband. It just feels 'right' to me, much more so than a warband with 4 knights in it. That, and each other hero gets a skill which is unique and useful. Basically, I can't wait to really get to use them (game 1 has just started!).

When the campaign is over, I'll certainly post my thoughts.

Yes, please do post your thoughts!

I don't see it as they are braver than him - just that they respond to his charismatic, noble leadership, because their entire lives they have been raised to do so.

Mousillon, hmm? Nasty place. A few nutso Grail Pilgrims might be just the thing! Good luck...

-Michael

Thanks for the response. Based on that, I dropped my changes to the banner (no longer needed) and only changed around the henchmen. Besides for that, the warband will run as intended.

And thanks for the wish of luck. I'm up against amazons this round...we've nerfed the "no AS rule" on their weapons to being armor piercing, but they are still a tough warband. As for luck, I'm sure I'll need it!

Never fought against the Amazons. I remember their list as being weird because of the odd kit.

http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=87&func=view&catid=11&id=131624#131624

here's the list of the warbands being used, if you are interested. All relevant stats and rules are there.

I'm really hoping to capture one of their heroes, just to steal their equipment.

And as an aside, you could very easily make a 40k themed warband using their rules. Laspistols, Lasguns, Force Shields, Chain Swords...it'd make for a very fun warband to use in Mordheim.

Capture one of my heroes

I'll keep said edits in mind for our game
Thx Mweaver

Channeler of Grace (Novice of the Lady only): If the Novice of the Lady is not taken out of action in a game, and does not search for rare items after the game, she may attempt to bless one of the warband’s swords with the Lady’s grace. If the Novice of the Lady makes a successful Leadership test, roll a d6 to determine the results:
1 – 2 The sword acts as if it was an ithilmar weapon
3 – 4 The sword grants +1 on rolls to hit
5 – 6 The sword grants +1 attack
Additionally, the sword counts as a magical weapon for purposes of hitting ethereal creatures, etc. All results last only for the next game.

How about 1-2 be changed to "+1 Initiative"?

Otherwise, there is no point blessing an ithilmar or gromril sword. Well...there is, but there is a 1/3 chance of the blessing doing nothing, which gives the incentive to not give your best sword to your best fighter.

Well, I promised to write up my thoughts about the warband. I had to drop out of the campaign after 2 games because my hours exploded...so bare in mind that these thoughts are only after 2 games.

(1) Pricing was great. I could start off with a fully armored and mounted knight, and still have a warband that was competitive. At the same time, it didn't feel overpowered, and in both games they were very close. Good job on that!

(2) Loved the heroes. Each of them felt like they belonged and had a place in the warband. All too often you have a leader who has personality, backed up by 'slightly better than henchmen' heroes and 'I only take them because they are heroes' heroes. aka, champions and youngbloods. Each hero here was one that had a role.

My damsel got foresight (so I made 'she' into a 'he' and called him a seer), and I have to say that if my luck wasn't horrible then the spell is a bit overpowered. PL 6 and re-roll all misses and wounds? Even with WS2, he was on paper one of the deadliest members of the warband. My opponents were just lucky that I couldn't roll a 6+ to save my life. But when it did go off, it was great!

As for the skills, I didn't get far enough to use them. The horse master got his trainer skill, but immediately failed his Ld test to use it.

(3) I gave my squire the banner. It crippled him in CC, as -1 attack is really harsh. However, the +1 Ld was nice, and it felt fluffy. It didn't help me post-game, which was a nice for balancing.

(4) I can't comment too much on henchmen, as I changed the rules for them. You can see the rules above. I personally liked the Man-at-Arms / Zealot switch. Both had their roles in the warband, and while the zealots were better on the charge, their WS2 hurt them when fighting a dwarf noble.

(5) I played 2 games.

Game 1 v. Amazons
Won the game, after getting the charge, weathering their counter-charge, and doing a counter-counter-charge. Good times! The game felt fair, though I still think that Amazons are a stronger warband due to their weaponry. The only reason I got the charge in the first place was that my longbows forced them to close in.

Game 2 v. Dwarfs

Again, I got the charge but bounced off. I was on the verge of getting curb-stomped when the dwarfs failed a Ld9 rout test. It felt like a fair fight, with the dwarfs having a slight advantage. Sure, I barely had numbers, but WS4 + T4 + Hard to Kill made them a tough nut to crack.


So after 2 games, with the warband against other starter warbands, I'll say this: I would gladly play this warband again. It was full of character, it played well, and it felt like the power level was a bit higher than a standard mercenary warband. Then again, lack of crossbows + blunderbusses does somewhat make up for that, and the loss of income was painful. The warband isn't on Lustria levels, but it meshes very well into Mordheim.

Because I felt the need to change the henchmen, I give this warband an 8.5/10 , and would gladly recommend it to anyone who wants to play Bretonnians.

Thanks for the feedback, Grumbaki. Glad they seem to be working, at least in the early stages of the campaign. I still have not had a chance to playtest them myself, and it doesn't look like I will any time soon.

Sorry to hear you had to drop out of the campaign... but hopefully the extra hours at work = extra $$ for figures!